tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-56015251884168378672024-03-18T15:58:03.015-04:00The Final ManifestoA blog in support of legal and social equality for all safe, romantic and sexual relationships between consenting adults.Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.comBlogger250125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-8151659594914769142017-03-26T16:23:00.003-04:002017-03-27T00:41:18.999-04:00Film: Friends From France<iframe allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/utSQeocQQuU" width="560"></iframe><br />
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<i>Friends from France</i> (a.k.a. <i>Les Interdits</i>) is a multilingual film about two cousins from France traveling to the USSR to help Soviet Jews escape to Israel. The vast majority of the film takes place within the one week they are in the USSR, and centers around their relationship with each other, and with their Jewish identities. I was struck by how, if only some lines were changed, the entire film could be about a sibling couple and there would be very little difference, except for the fact that everyone would be less open talking about it. Both of the main characters grew up together in a refugee camp, and their push and pull dynamic is reminiscent of other types of intense, but frowned upon relationships. The film isn't a thriller, or a mystery, but more of a personal drama about self-discovery and human connection.<br />
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The whole film can be watched on YouTube with English subtitles. It's not a fast paced movie, but it's not long either - just 90 minutes, which is rare these days. I liked it, though I'd say I enjoyed <a href="https://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/03/film-how-i-live-now.html" target="_blank">some other movies</a> more.<br />
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<iframe allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/FCDnc1S5LJM" width="560"></iframe>Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com4tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-55106753633488823242017-03-13T14:30:00.001-04:002017-04-08T13:19:48.135-04:00Podcasts on Consanguinamory<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: center;">
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There have been a series of podcasts coming out recently on consanguinamory. They've mostly focused on GSA, since there's been a wave of media coverage on GSA in the past couple of years. The <i>Mike E & Emma</i> podcast did <a href="https://soundcloud.com/edge961/mike-e-emma-podcast-090316" target="_blank">a short interview</a> with a woman in a relationship with her half-brother. They were really supportive, and it was nice to hear that the woman's family is supportive too.<br />
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<i>Snap Judgement</i> dedicated <a href="https://soundcloud.com/snapjudgment/gsa-nuclear-family-snap-judgment" target="_blank">a portion of one of their episodes</a> to an interview with a GSA couple. It also features supportive family members. It's so nice to hear stories of GSA couples getting acceptance, since so often the stories of GSA couples being arrested include family turning the couples in.<br />
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Now, after those short but important pieces, <i><a href="http://ladyfoxentertainment.com/" target="_blank">Nothing Off Limits</a></i> has dedicated a string of podcast episodes to the subject, covering all possible angles. A podcast episode came out Sunday night featuring <a href="http://www.lilysgardener.com/" target="_blank">Cristina Shy</a>. She did an excellent job, and the host is very understanding. This is the kind of coverage we need to move the movement forward. I want to thank both Cristina Shy and Michelle Ann Owens for all of this.<br />
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Cristina's final message is really powerful, and I wanted to reproduce it here for everyone who doesn't want to listen to the whole podcast:<br />
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<i>America was founded on "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." People always forget about that last part. Freedom isn't just about doing whatever you want, it's about forging your own way in the world, and finding out how to be your best self. It's about making the world a better place for you, and those around you. My relationship with my brother is the best relationship I've ever had. Someone else coming and trying to ruin everything for us would not change what we've had. This relationship has made me grow as a person, and it has given me a reason to live. This is the path I have found for myself, and it has brought good into the world. And yet people still want to tell me that I do not have the right to decide what is best in life. They say I do not have the right to love this man, and be loved by this man. If they'd had their way, we never would've gotten together, and then I would never have learned all the things I've learned.</i><br />
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<i>Imagine if every time you touched your partner affectionately, people harassed you. Image if you had to run in fear of the police finding out you were just having sex. Imagine if taking your kids to the doctor meant possibly losing them forever. What would the world look like then? I don't think it's a world anyone would want to live in, but that's the world everyone else is forcing us to live in. No-one should have the right to do this to another innocent person. We have not hurt anyone else, and we have not hurt each other. The world could only be better for letting us be free.</i></blockquote>
<b>Edit:</b> The <i>Nothing Off Limits</i> episode with Jane of <a href="http://consanguinamory.com/">Consanguinamory.com</a> has just come out. Jane did an excellent job! This has been some of the best and fairest coverage our community has gotten, ever. I want to thank everyone involved for their work. You can read Jane's original interview with Keith <a href="https://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2016/01/another-woman-denied-her-rights.html" target="_blank">here</a>.<br />
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</audio>Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-79055212888096227292016-02-03T11:30:00.000-05:002017-03-14T20:08:34.716-04:00Documentary: "Incest: The Last Taboo?"<iframe allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" priv3_iframe_element="1" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/cPjvqIXSdM4" width="560"></iframe><br />
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Finally! The full version! I thought this documentary was lost when Current_ TV was sold to Aljazeera. I really have to thank <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2016/01/another-woman-denied-her-rights.html">Jane Doe</a> for finding this.<br />
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This is, I think, the most even-handed portrayal of GSA I've seen. It shows people who never acted on their feelings, people who moved past their feelings willingly, people who were in relationships but were forced apart, and people who are still together. I also love that Barbara Gonyo is their primary source for a counselor's perspective.<br />
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They go through the standard scare-mongering regarding deformed children, but then show clearly that the children of consanguineous couples don't have to be deformed. They show that in many cases the feelings aren't reciprocated, but that sometimes they are, and in both cases broader awareness and acceptance is necessary to help them in the ways <i>those specific people need</i>.<br />
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I find the psychological analysis in this somewhat laughable, but that's where psychotherapy is currently at regarding GSA. What I'm more interested in are the people, and the people are amazing.<br />
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<iframe allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" priv3_iframe_element="1" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/o8KODJSGJGc" width="560"></iframe>Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-55942292345798842832016-01-24T11:00:00.000-05:002017-03-28T23:33:32.858-04:00Marguerite and Julien de Ravalet<iframe allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="315" priv3_iframe_element="1" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/LZwKBGij23g" width="560"></iframe>
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The story of Marguerite and Julien de Ravalet was quite famous in France
in its time, and is still well known there. In the rest of the world,
though, they are completely unknown. I myself was surprised that I had
never heard of them, until I did research and found out that 99% of
everything online and in print about them is in French. Making exact sense of the story has been difficult, since the ages of those involved during various events are different everywhere I find them. I could only find <a href="http://baguette.over-blog.net/article-l-histoire-de-marguerite-et-julien-de-ravalet-69160987.html">one English-language site</a> which discusses the story in full.</div>
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Marguerite and Julien were two of eleven siblings born to the landed Ravalet family at the end of the Renaissance. The time period was a chaotic one, the culmination of religious and political conflict between the Catholics and Calvinists of France, who fought bloody battles and attempted assassinations all during the Ravalets' lives.<br />
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Marguerite and Julien grew up on the Ravalet estate in Tourlaville, northern France, and from a very early age they were extremely close. As they grew up and became even closer, their parents decided that it was a problem. They separated them by sending Julien off to boarding school. He didn't return until years later.<br />
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<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="http://www.justacote.com/photos_entreprises/le-parc-et-chateau-des-ravalet-tourlaville-14004333130.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" src="http://www.justacote.com/photos_entreprises/le-parc-et-chateau-des-ravalet-tourlaville-14004333130.jpg" height="180" width="320" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><i>The Ravalet chateau</i></td></tr>
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Their parents married Marguerite off to the tax collector, Jean Lefebvre, who was <i>much</i>, <i>much</i> older than her. (She was only 13 or 14 at the time.) By all accounts it was a very unhappy marriage. Eventually she couldn't take it anymore, and she left him and went home. Julien was there when she returned. Some time after, Marguerite became pregnant, and she fled home to avoid retribution.<br />
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<a href="http://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/normandie/sites/regions_france3/files/assets/images/2014/09/09/ravalet1.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="clear: left; float: left; margin-bottom: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="http://france3-regions.francetvinfo.fr/normandie/sites/regions_france3/files/assets/images/2014/09/09/ravalet1.jpg" height="180" width="320" /></a></div>
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Julien seems to have given his father the impressions that he would go and find Marguerite to bring her back. Instead, when he found her they absconded to Paris. When he found out, Jean Lefebvre (Marguerite's husband) went to the royal authorities and demanded that the two be charged with adultery and incest. They were arrested in Paris and thrown in prison. During their trial they were found guilty on both counts, and sentenced to death.<br />
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Over the course of this ordeal, word got around about the de Ravalet siblings and they became famous. Many people were sympathetic toward them, and their father personally begged King Henri IV to pardon them. King Henri explained that because Marguerite was married and had committed adultery, he couldn't publicly justify pardoning them. The only concession he could give was to allow for Marguerite and Julien to have a proper Christian burial, and not be thrown into the public mass graves.<br />
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Marguerite gave birth to her baby in prison, and gave the baby to her parents, to care for it in her absence. Shortly after, she and Julien were publicly decapitated. Their tombstone read:<br />
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<i>Ci gisent le frère et la sœur. Passant ne t'informe pas de la cause de leur mort, mais passe et prie Dieu pour leur âmes.</i></blockquote>
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<i>[Here lie the brother and the sister. Passerby, search not the cause of their death, but pass and pray to God for their souls.]</i></blockquote>
After their death, the siblings became symbols in France of brave and tragic love. Paintings were made depicting them, and plays were written about them. Recently a modern retelling has come out which has reignited interest in their story: <i>Marguerite & Julien</i>. You can watch it <a href="http://vidzi.tv/mbfyu16l6ilh.html"><b><i>here</i></b></a>.<br />
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<b>Edit:</b> Bonus! It grossed out a <a href="https://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/26/movies/review-marguerite-julien-a-tale-of-siblings-in-love.html?smid=go-share&_r=0" target="_blank">New York Times film critic</a>! I like it even more now!Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com3tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-71611810337705072782016-01-10T17:02:00.000-05:002016-01-12T01:59:11.249-05:00There are plenty of people out there open to changeThis is from a while ago on Tumblr, but it's worth reposting here. I responded to one of <a href="http://fullmarriageequality.tumblr.com/post/75116673032/im-not-kidding">Full Marriage Equality's posts</a>, and the result was I pleasantly open debate with someone on the ethics of banning consanguinamory.<br />
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fullmarriageequality: <br />
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<i>Let’s take a look at the arguments of someone who is concerned that <a href="http://socialnetworkhell.tumblr.com/post/74816380220/not-everyone-okay-with-consensual-incest-is">“not everyone okay with consensual incest is kidding.”</a> Because I’m not just “okay” with. I strongly support the rights of consenting adults to be together and consanguinamorous relationships are some of the most beautiful I have personally witnessed. And no, I’m not kidding.</i><br />
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<i>[...]</i></blockquote>
thefinalmanifesto:<br />
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<i>You know, the “consanguinamory is dysfunctional” argument never seems to apply outside of consanguinamory. If we’re discriminating against siblings because of their “dysfunctional” relationship, why aren’t we doing that with non-related people in dysfunctional relationships? I have yet to see anyone propose that we take those in codependent, emotionally abusive relationships and throw them in jail for a few decades.</i></blockquote>
isjustmenow:<br />
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<i>It’s culturally taboo, so I’m uncomfortable with incest…I need to look at research behind it, but I’m always pro humans at least considering acceptance of alternative lifestyles.</i><br />
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<i>If you do also do some googling, I challenge you too completely accept it for 30 seconds before you analyze data to counter this arguement. (Like, how often are the r(x) abusive compared to not? How would our society differentiate between abuse, rape, and an emotional love expressed physically (something we already struggle with, and this would certainly blur a few shaded lines)? Would we make age gaps? How much of our disdain is taboo, which was once held for the LGBT community? I think if we tackle issues pragmatically then it can lower the chances of us becoming bigoted asses. And, in fact, a lot of my initial qualms against it could have been homophobic or racist or mysoginistic in nature as well.)</i></blockquote>
<a name='more'></a>thefinalmanifesto:<br />
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<i>You know what? I can respect that. I think at this stage open-mindedness and respect for the choices of others is all we can ask of people. I don’t find it disgusting like you, but I actually have exactly the same concerns over what a society that destigmatized consanguinamory would look like.</i><br />
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<i>I think, culturally, and just morally as human beings, we have an interest in the happiness of our fellow humans. Even when we respect their choices we at least want to encourage them to achieve fulfillment. When a friend’s self-destructive, we try to encourage them to stop, even if we don’t coerce them. I don’t think consanguinamory is inherently dysfunctional or destructive, so I don’t think it’s in anyone’s interest to discourage it on its own.</i><br />
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<i>However, it is important that we ensure that abuse or manipulation aren’t normalized ever. I think that our fear of consanguinamory is wrapped up in sex-negativity. A society where men and women are inherently seen as equal, without sex negativity or unnecessary shame, where seeking consent is always encouraged, and where we respect the choices of other people, is one in which not only is familial abuse less likely to happen, but it’s more likely to be reported.</i><br />
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<i>One thing that proponents of stigmatization and legal prohibition never consider is that all of this negativity is piled up on the abused child, not just consenting adults. Why are we imbuing them with all this shame, when it is the coercion and rape that is wrong? In a society where a child knows they won’t be stigmatized and ostracized, that people won’t secretly see them as dirtied, they’re more likely to reach out and seek help.</i><br />
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<i>Reject only that which must be rejected. Accept everything else. That’s the way we’ll produce an open and healthy society, not through shame. (Unless you’re a rapist or a murderer, then I actually encourage shame. People should feel guilty for hurting other people. That’s part of what motivates us to not hurt other people.)</i></blockquote>
isjustmenow:<br />
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<i>I appreciate your respect, and I want you to know that it’s something I will seriously consider before completely writing off. I also don’t consider it disgusting, the concept makes me uncomfortable. However, even while committing homoerotic acts I was made discomforted by public displays of it for a (albeit short) period of time. Taboo doesn’t mean bad, it just means not socially accepted at this time, but cultures and people change. It’s something I will continue to consider over time, and I appreciate your open and thoughtful response to my.. What you might see as ignorance.</i></blockquote>
thefinalmanifesto:<br />
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<i>It’s no problem at all. People feel embarrassed when they grow because it reveals their previous failure, but I think that assumes a perfection on the part of human beings that’s never been true. No-one’s every had it “all figured out” from the very beginning. The only thing I ever fault people for is being scared to admit that they don’t know it all, and refusing to evolve.</i><br />
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<i>I’d also just like to add something I didn’t say before. I’d like to point out that what you and I have been talking about here is the problem of people involved in socially familial power dynamics being used. You must remember, not everyone who’s blood related is family, and not everyone who’s family is blood related. Woody Allen’s marriage to his adopted daughter creeps me out, because his history of past abuses gives me the strong impression that their relationship started in an unhealthy, possibly manipulative or non-consensual way, and that it’s now something of a Stockholm marriage. Yet, no-one’s throwing him in jail.</i><br />
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<i>Meanwhile, couples who’ve never even met until their 30’s and happen to be related, have actually gotten thrown in jail. At that point, the only argument people can hold up is one based on eugenics. Aside from the fact that eugenics is not considered a proper role for the state, it is still bad even by the standard of eugenics. The problem is that the “incest” stigma is blind, ignoring the individual circumstances of relationships.</i><br />
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<i>(The research on this subject is sparse, and tends to be heavily negatively biased, with both biased samples and biased researchers. The subject is so taboo that it’s hard to get an exact pinpoint on anything. However, there are real examples of positive counter-cases to every broad, universalizing argument: individuals who are adults, completely consenting and equal, loving, and who have completely healthy children. These cases alone should be enough to make people rethink some things.)</i><br />
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<i>I’m saying all this in good faith. I understand re-examining old assumptions is hard for people, and I pass no judgment on those who honestly embark on such a journey, no matter where it takes them.</i></blockquote>
isjustmenow:<br />
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<i>I see where you are coming from on the familial issue, and I respect that it’s a legitimate side of the issue. I’d like to see some survey analysis’s on the topic at hand if any are available.I think that I’m comfortable with siblings, or family members who were born in the same generation being legalized, but in general I am bothered by relationships that have a greater then 2 decade age gap because we have data to support it being fairly unhealthy for the younger member of the party. If it’s an issue our society decides to re-examine in the coming decades then I will look forward to the research that accompanies these social movements.</i></blockquote>
thefinalmanifesto:<br />
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<i>I completely understand where you’re coming from on that. The only point I’d have to make then is, shouldn’t Woody Allen’s marriage be illegal? If you think so, then what about those who aren’t family, but have large age gaps and severely uneven power dynamics? What about those who just have large age gaps? What about those who just have very uneven power dynamics? Should it be illegal for the rich to date the poor? For the old the young? What if there’s a large power gap, but the more powerful party is responsible, refrains from abusing their power, and is generally an honest broker, treating the other party with respect?</i><br />
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<i>I’m not being flippant, these are things people need to consider generally, and yet are taken for granted. They’re also related to what you’ve said. What you have to consider is, are any of these things proper places for state regulation? How much social engineering do we actually want the state to undertake? I would understand why you might frown on any of these, and at least as far as social prohibition, I might agree with you on some of these things; to be honest, I’m not primarily concerned with destigmatization and normalization at this point. I just want the government to stop throwing consenting, responsible adults in jail and destroying lives for no good reason.</i></blockquote>
It was a really productive conversation, and I think the result speaks to that:<br />
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<i>We’ve had… considerable internet discussion over this, and like I said I would I’ve thought a lot about it… I think the problems I see with [consanguinamory] are essentially the same I see with any relationship. There are chances of abuse. I think the risk [from] stigmatizing sex and love is higher than the risk [from] de-stigmatizing it and bringing the same shit to light and facing it head on.</i></blockquote>
Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-78729772970170185892016-01-05T14:36:00.002-05:002017-03-14T20:36:04.551-04:00Another Woman Denied Her Rights<a href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2016/01/another-woman-denied-her-rights.html">From Full Marriage Equality</a>:<br />
<blockquote>
<i>I'd
say my childhood was pretty average really, good bits and bad bits as
any normal family. There was a lot of arguing and hostility between my
parents and they really should have had a divorce because it often made a
bad atmosphere for a day or two after an argument. On the whole, they
were normal parents except for their marital problems. I always spent
more time with my dad than with my mum because my mum and I never really
got along all that well; a personality clash I guess. It was a shame,
but you cannot force a person to like you and get along with you.</i></blockquote>
<a name='more'></a><blockquote>
<i>[...] [W]e
were always very very careful about contraception because we feared
genetic defects. I did have a child with another man after my dad I
broke up.
I broke up with this other man after a couple of years, though, because
the relationship had gone sour and I didn't want to repeat my parents'
mistakes and bring my child up in the middle of constant bickering.</i></blockquote>
It was even more than just bickering. From another source:<br />
<blockquote>
<i>He was a control freak, jealous and
possessive, I couldn't take it any more[, the] micromanagement and accusations
of cheating (something I'd never do). In the end he became violent and
that's why I ended the relationship. Despite the bad break-up, I still
speak to him and he still has contact with our child. I've tried to
rebuild a friendship with him based on the fact that a child deserves to
know both parents, and although it's hard, I'm succeeding in that.</i></blockquote>
She continues:<br />
<blockquote>
<i>Well,
I remember the first day I saw [my dad] in that light because I
remember thinking, "Why couldn't more blokes be just like him, easy to
get along with, approachable, chilled out?"
We just understood each other on so many levels. It took a few weeks
before we kissed for the first time, and that was completely
spontaneous, but I think on some level we both knew what was happening
between us. It only took a couple of months after that for us to become
full sexual partners. As for who made the first move, we both did, it
was something that just happened.</i></blockquote>
She was 20 at the time.<br />
<blockquote>
<i>I was
trying to get my head around my feelings, because at the time I thought
that we might have been wrong or perverted or something, although it
certainly didn't feel that way. It's only since I've been able to speak
to other people on the Internet
that I've realized that my feelings and thoughts were normal and
common. It was a confusing time to say the least. I wanted to be like
everyone else and be able to tell people that I'd found the right guy,
but with him being my dad, that was impossible. It was awful having to
bottle so much up, because I was excited about the new relationship and
over the moon happy. Ever tried to suppress happy? It's not easy. I knew
he was my one.</i></blockquote>
<blockquote>
<i>[...] Before
it happened, I'd actually internalized society's expectations and
views, without even realizing that I'd done so. I just assumed that only
screwed up people would do such a thing, and never did I suspect I was a
likely candidate for such an experience. Needless to say, when things
began to move in that direction, I soon changed my attitude.
In every other respect we're normal people and I think this could
potentially happen to anyone if they are capable of feeling attraction
towards a family member. I feel some attraction towards my uncle, too.
He's just unbelievably attractive... at least I think so, but he is
happily married with small children and I would never want to break up
their home, so I won't even go there.</i></blockquote>
<blockquote>
<i>[...] Since
we've broken up we've remained good friends, but we keep some distance
because it would be so easy to get back together again, and I don't
think he would want that, even though I definitely do. I still see him
as my dad, but he is also my ex-partner. The roles of being family and
lover are not
incompatible, in fact they go together as well as biscuits and cheese in
my experience. Contrary to popular public opinion, breaking up does not result in catastrophic family meltdown. The father/daughter aspect of our relationship is completely intact.</i></blockquote>
<blockquote>
<i>[...] For
us [having to hide] it felt like a cloud of doom hanging over us. Apart from the
secrecy, there is no other disadvantage I can think of from these types
of relationships, and that disadvantage wouldn't even be there if people
understood what these relationships really are about. I'd say that
consanguineous relationships have some special advantages, like knowing
the other person more completely before committing to a relationship,
they tend to be more deep. I've spoken to many online who feel this way
too.</i></blockquote>
<blockquote>
<i>[...] First
of all, [if you find out someone you know is consanguinamorous] don't panic and flip out, and don't assume that they are sick or
anything. They're the same people you've always known. Their
sexuality just isn't what you expected it to be. It should be no
different than finding out that your relative is gay. Also, don't think
that because they're consanguinamarous that they'll automatically want
to have sex with any and all family members. [...] Just as straight people don't want to bed every member of
the opposite sex, or gay people don't want to bed every member of the
same sex, consanguineous people don't want to bed their whole family.
Like in all other relationships, the mutual attraction has to be there,
otherwise nothing happens. Whatever you do, don't get the police, it's
really not helpful or necessary.</i></blockquote>
Elsewhere, she had this to say about how she feels:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span class="postbody">It's been a while since that relationship ended,
and so I am now a single mum, and would rather remain alone unless dad
returns to me. My time with him was the happiest in my life. We've
talked about everything that's happened. I know he still loves me, and
he was devastated when my ex did what he did to me. He said he couldn't
imagine why anyone would ever want to hurt me. Me and dad are now more
like best friends, but I know that the feelings still run very deep
within both of us, we will never be like a traditional father and
daughter, because our relationship added so much emotion on top of those
'normal' feelings.
<br />
<br />
I know one thing, never again will I try to force myself to be anything
other than what I naturally am. I am happy to be who and what I am. It's
society that has the problem with us, and that's my point, it's </span></i><span class="postbody">their
</span><i><span class="postbody">problem, not ours. If things had been different my dad wouldn't be
carrying about all the guilt of having felt like he did something bad
when he didn't, all he did was break a rule that shouldn't be there to
begin with. In fact we would never have broken up in the first place,
and quite likely we would have been very happily married. I miss him
like crazy and I want him back, but I do not know if that will ever be
possible. He's my soul mate, the only one I've ever loved so completely,
and he's my dad. I carry no shame or guilt, because I am glad to be me
and I am better off for my experience. I only wish he could feel so
confident and comfortable with his sexuality too. One day, maybe he will
come back to me, I live in hope.</span></i></blockquote>
The more I’ve talked
with her, the more impressed I’ve been with how intelligent and
articulate she is. She has a very strong sense of who she is. She
keeps reminding me of the main character from <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/02/the-unspeakable-act.html"><i>The Unspeakable Act</i></a>.<br />
<br />
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Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-5074481366763045392015-12-29T11:40:00.001-05:002017-03-22T01:04:22.062-04:00"Do you think incest and polygamy will be legalized?" - Masterpost<b><a href="http://www.futuretimeline.net/forum/topic/8103-do-you-think-incest-and-polygamy-will-be-legalized/">I came across a poll on the subject of the future of full marriage equality</a>:</b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>I
was watching a TV show recently and surprisingly, three characters (two
men and a woman) got together in a sexual AND romantic relationship -
as in, it wasn’t just a kink, they were serious about it, they even made
their relationship official to their family/friends. And it got me
thinking, do you guys think polygamy will ever be legalized? And incest?
And should they be, and if not, why? Will our society ever see it as
acceptable/normal like with gay relationships?</i></blockquote>
<b>I thought it would be helpful to create one post where I link to everything:</b><br />
<ul>
<li><a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/12/do-you-think-incest-and-polygamy-will.html">My initial response.</a> I debunk the idea that no-one cares enough, argue against the usual eugenic argument, and also against the annoying argument I see all the time that amounts to, “Hah! All you can get is your mom?!” I also point out that polygamy/polyamorous marriage isn’t inherently sexist, because it includes polyandry and polygynandry. Women still have to consent.</li>
<li><a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/12/do-you-think-incest-and-polygamy-will_19.html">Eugenics is not a good argument</a>, but it’s the only one that sounds kind of scientific and reasonable in people’s heads, so they always fall back on it. It doesn’t matter if it has strange and disturbing logical implications, apparently. Then I have to explain the difference between consensual sex and consensual cannibalism…</li>
<li><a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/12/do-you-think-incest-and-polygamy-will_20.html">I like this one.</a> He provided me with an actual study for his statistic. I point out that it’s not as bad as he originally said, and either way the study itself points out that its findings are almost useless, because of sample bias.</li>
<li><a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/12/do-you-think-incest-and-polygamy-will_21.html">I have to further explain</a> why eugenic arguments are logically dangerous, and how even by the standards of eugenics, laws banning consanguineous sex make zero sense.</li>
<li><a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/12/do-you-think-incest-and-polygamy-will_24.html">I lay down my arguments</a>, once and for all, for why it makes sense and is just to have age-of-consent laws, but not laws against consanguineous sex. Let this be the end of it.</li>
<li><a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/12/do-you-think-incest-and-polygamy-will_26.html">I explain to someone</a> why people are polyamorous, and how it can work successfully. I also point out an assumption in his own thinking about jealousy in monogamy.</li>
<li><a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/12/do-you-think-incest-and-polygamy-will_28.html">My closing statements.</a></li>
</ul>
Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-83095718497525326092015-12-28T11:25:00.001-05:002017-03-22T01:13:15.631-04:00"Do you think incest and polygamy will be legalized?" - Part 7<b><a href="http://www.futuretimeline.net/forum/topic/8103-do-you-think-incest-and-polygamy-will-be-legalized/">I came across a poll on the subject of the future of full marriage equality</a>:</b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>I
was watching a TV show recently and surprisingly, three characters (two
men and a woman) got together in a sexual AND romantic relationship -
as in, it wasn’t just a kink, they were serious about it, they even made
their relationship official to their family/friends. And it got me
thinking, do you guys think polygamy will ever be legalized? And incest?
And should they be, and if not, why? Will our society ever see it as
acceptable/normal like with gay relationships?</i></blockquote>
<b>Closing statements:</b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>I don’t understand why y'all feel so comfortable trashing these people, and arguing for legally abusing them. <b>Is it because y'all don’t know them personally? Well, I do, and they’re perfectly nice, reasonable people. Actually, some of them are nicer than the “normal” people I’ve met. They love one another. They take care of their kids. They pay taxes.</b> Emotionally, I don’t understand how people can hate that so much. Trust me, just because you don’t think you know such a couple, <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/discovering-consanguinamory-in-family.html">doesn’t mean you don’t</a>. The closet for both [polyamorous and consanguinamorous people] is large, and the closet for consanguineous couples is massive. It doesn’t mean they like living in fear and secrecy, and they shouldn’t have to. However, it’s easy enough for them to get away with it that they don’t risk rocking the boat.<br /><br /><b>It seems like what y'all want is to shove them into the closet and tell them to shut up, so y'all don’t have to be confronted with personal discomfort.</b> Why should your personal discomfort have any relevance to law in a liberal country which enshrines protections for the rights of minorities against the tyranny of the majority? How does shaming people and telling them to shut up encourage abuse victims to come forward? <b>And more importantly, how can you demand such a contract when it isn’t in good faith? These couples </b></i>do<i><b> hide in the closet. The problem is that when other people find out accidentally, <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/search/label/injustice">they hunt them down and throw them in jail</a>, even if they hid it well.</b><br /><b>They need to fight these laws, because there is never any guarantee that the law won’t be used to abuse them, regardless of how they behave.</b> The majority always loves telling minorities to shut up and go away when they complain. Meanwhile, minorities complain because, regardless of their silence and isolation, the majority still abuses some from time to time to make an example of them. <b>There’s no other way for them to protect themselves, other than to fight the legal and social regime.</b><br /><br />Most feel like the cost of fighting is too high, which is why it takes decades of momentum to get more to come out of the closet. <b>That doesn’t mean they stay in the closet because they acquiesce to this “agreement”. They’re just afraid. They’re afraid of </b></i>y'all<i><b>.</b> They’re adults with otherwise normal lives, who’ve done nothing to anyone that could ever be construed as harmful or destructive. Yet y'all have the power to utterly destroy them. Is that just? <b>Are y'all really comfortable being potential threats to perfectly nice people, </b></i>some of whom y'all may know<i><b>? I don’t want to be a threat.</b> I don’t think anyone should have the right to be - not towards good people like them.</i></blockquote>
Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-14234197809467230952015-12-26T11:54:00.001-05:002015-12-29T11:41:50.098-05:00"Do you think incest and polygamy will be legalized?" - Part 6<b><a href="http://www.futuretimeline.net/forum/topic/8103-do-you-think-incest-and-polygamy-will-be-legalized/">I came across a poll on the subject of the future of full marriage equality</a>:</b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>I
was watching a TV show recently and surprisingly, three characters (two
men and a woman) got together in a sexual AND romantic relationship -
as in, it wasn’t just a kink, they were serious about it, they even made
their relationship official to their family/friends. And it got me
thinking, do you guys think polygamy will ever be legalized? And incest?
And should they be, and if not, why? Will our society ever see it as
acceptable/normal like with gay relationships?</i></blockquote>
<b>Addendum on non-monogamy:</b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>EVanimations, on 28 Apr 2014 - 9:51 PM, said:</i><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
Futurist, I’ll admit that I don’t know or care much about the issue at hand, so I’m not going to spend too much effort defending a position I’m unfamiliar with. That said, my opinion is that… well, incest is icky. I very much dislike the idea of having sex with someone directly related to me; it ain’t right.<br />
<br />
[...] <b>As for polygamy, I don’t like the idea of watching some other guy have sex with my woman, and I respect the fact that my woman doesn’t like the idea of watching some other girl have sex with me. Again, no reason to keep it illegal, but why would you want that in the first place if you truly respect each other? It feels kind of unfair to a woman who loves a man but has to share him with 5 others. Same the other way around.</b></blockquote>
<i>I understand your personal aversions. <b>“Wrong” for you, however, doesn’t automatically mean “wrong” for somebody else.</b> There are advocates of same-sex marriage who still find the thought of having sex with someone of their own gender to be disgusting. Dan Savage, who gives advice mostly to straight people, still finds the idea of sex with a woman icky. <b>People find the idea of having sex with someone they inherently don’t find appealing to be disturbing. However, other people are other people, and thoughts aren’t sufficient justification for police action.</b> You seem to understand that though.<br /><br />If you read poly* people’s writing - especially the philosophers and social theorists - many actually find the idea of sexual jealousy itself to be repugnant. They see it as a desire to control another person, to get love from them through social sanction and even legal force, and not through having earned it.<br /><br />The argument is that if you’re constantly working to deserve their love, and they’re constantly working to deserve yours, then a fling on the side, or even a more long-term relationship on the side, isn’t threatening. <b>Jealousy, however, particularly when worshiped as it is in monogamist cultures, can lead to immoral and antisocial behavior: spying, stalking, lying, yelling, beating, and even murder</b>. Because our society worships monogamy, it inevitably also worships jealousy, and so encourages all of this destructive, unethical behavior.<br /><br />There are people out there, a minority though they are, who don’t feel much jealousy in relationships. <b>Besides that though, you’re buying into the monogamist line of thinking, which equates sex or even love of someone else with a betrayal of their love for you.</b> Clearly, having sex with someone else doesn’t mean they don’t want to have sex with you. What’s harder for people to understand is that this can apply to love as well, though it’s more difficult.<br /><br /><b>I’d like to point out that there are many people who are dispositionally and openly polyamorous, but are in practice monogamous because they can’t find anyone else they like enough to integrate into their lives.</b> I think most poly* people aren’t against monogamy, they just wish it was left to occur naturally, instead of yelling at people because they’re not doing it right. (I’m not saying that’s what you’re doing.)<br /><br />The most common type of polyamory I’ve heard of is hierarchical polyamory. In that, there’s a primary relationship, which has veto power and the most romantic attachment, as well as secondary relationships, which can be long-term but aren’t as demanding or committed. Even in group marriages, different people add different things to each other’s lives, and so their love isn’t necessarily mutually exclusive.<br /><br />When the relationship is all same-gender, or the other people involved are bisexual, it makes it easier because everyone is sexually and romantically bound to everyone. Common triads are between a bisexual man or woman, another bisexual of the same gender, and someone of the opposite gender. They can all have sex together, sleep together, wake up together, and they each fear the loss of both others. It helps to limit the risk of fragmentation - which is, to be fair, a legitimate worry.</i></blockquote>
Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-702245113638554692015-12-24T12:30:00.003-05:002015-12-24T14:37:55.567-05:00A counselor who supports consanguine couples<a href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/">Full Marriage Equality</a> recently alerted me to an <a href="http://imgur.com/z5cvvJy">imgur post</a> about consanguinamory.<br />
<br />
<div class="separator" style="clear: both; text-align: left;">
<a href="http://i.imgur.com/z5cvvJy.jpg" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" src="http://i.imgur.com/z5cvvJy.jpg" height="209" width="320" /></a></div>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>(TL;DR: OP supports incest couples after commiserating with dozens of them.)</i> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>With human rights scratching towards the forefront of global issues, I'd
like to take a moment to voice support for consanguine couples. I was going to do one of those nifty "My Job As" posts that I admire and
enjoy, but I'm a small-time lurker who only has a few uploads, so I'm
not familiar-enough with the layout to really make a pop-out interesting
post. </i></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>Two years as an untrained volunteer peer counselor for <a href="http://blahtherapy.com/">BlahTherapy.com</a>, I
have spoken with literally thousands of people, I've counseled
marriages, helped people in their careers, contacted law enforcement for
abuse victims, and spent hours talking people out of suicide. Among all
of those unfortunates, the plight that has struck the deepest chord
with me are consanguine (incest) couples. This is a trend that is far
more common than what I've personally found discussed in any form of
media, and life for these people is very difficult. </i></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>Receiving much the same hate as LGBT persons and couples (and even hate
FROM LGBT persons), their relationships are considered just as
*forbidden* for reasons ranging from religious to scientific. (Example:
According to the coefficient of inbreeding, full siblings have 50%
chance to pass on deleterious alleles, which is very high, but just
because negative traits can be passed on, that is no indicator of what
KIND of negative genes will pass on.) </i></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>Much of society uses outrageous examples like three-headed children and
the Wrong Turn movie franchise as colloquial examples, but such
deformities are VERY extreme and unlikely, even in repeated incest; the
haemophilia that lurked in Royal European families is rumored to have
been the *result* of inbreeding, but this is impossible to verify,
nevertheless, the strength of the rumor that incest tends to produce
horrifying diseases has persisted in society. </i></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>The societal backlash on consanguine couples is often severe, given that
the potential for harm is statistically so much higher than other types
of relationships, but the harsh reality is that, in spite of how
society-at-large may feel about the topic, consanguine coupling happens
regularly (I wish I could cite that, but currently - and again, to my
personal knowledge - no reputable scientific foundation will fund incest
research). </i></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>To consanguine couples: you are not alone, and your plight is
well-understood. Not everyone condemns your feelings.
PM me any questions.</i></blockquote>
We've been unable to identify who made this post, or how to contact them. We'd love to network with this person, and potentially make connections between the consanguinamorous people they know and the consanguinamorous people we know. The greatest weakness of this community is how fragmented it is. If anyone knows how to contact this person, or if you yourself are the person who made this post, please contact myself or Full Marriage Equality. We, and everyone else we know, would really appreciate it.<br />
<br />
My email is <b>[the name of my blogspot] @protonmail.com</b>. (In case it wasn't clear, <b><i>thefinalmanifesto</i></b> is the name of my blogspot. I'm just being opaque to avoid spam.)Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-74914657274446312922015-12-24T11:40:00.000-05:002017-03-22T01:13:21.991-04:00"Do you think incest and polygamy will be legalized?" - Part 5<b><a href="http://www.futuretimeline.net/forum/topic/8103-do-you-think-incest-and-polygamy-will-be-legalized/">I came across a poll on the subject of the future of full marriage equality</a>:</b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>I
was watching a TV show recently and surprisingly, three characters (two
men and a woman) got together in a sexual AND romantic relationship -
as in, it wasn’t just a kink, they were serious about it, they even made
their relationship official to their family/friends. And it got me
thinking, do you guys think polygamy will ever be legalized? And incest?
And should they be, and if not, why? Will our society ever see it as
acceptable/normal like with gay relationships?</i></blockquote>
<b>This is the single most important argument I think I made. The distinction between the mental, ethical, and legal abilities of minors to consent is an important one, and one that rarely gets articulated. It’s an argument that doesn’t get brought too much, but is really annoying to deal with. I’m glad I could finally put down my thoughts on this definitively.</b><br />
<a name='more'></a><blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>ayubelwhishi, on 28 Apr 2014 - 10:05 AM, said:</i><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
Hey, I’m 15. I can choose my decisions. I am proof that I can consent with having sex with a 45 year old because I enjoy it and it seems more fun. <b>It’s not sexual abuse if I enjoy it and consent with it. I am proof that 14 and 15 year olds can consent.</b><br />
<br />
<b>See, this is the problem. With incest. A person falls in love with their sister or brother with the falsehood of being “in love” and “consent”.</b> I mean, if you want to have sex with your sister than go ahead. I don’t care if it’s behind closed doors. <b>But the idea of everybody watching you while you and your sister shout it out in public is just despicable.</b> There is a difference between gays and incestuous relationships need I remind you. In a gay relationship you have a variety of people you choose to marry and have sexual relationships. But with incest, you have sex with one person, it’s not like you can move on right? <b>There is no factual evidence that incestuous relationships are sexually orientated. Only pure bullshit of “Human rights, morality, they can love who they want”. The truth is, the thing they are doing is not healthy and massively harmful to their mental state. Which, funny enough sounds a lot like pedophiles and consenting children doesn’t it?</b></blockquote>
<i><b>A big part of this is about legal distinctions, and what kind of distinctions the law can and should be allowed to make.</b> Legally, a 15 year old can’t consent in any jurisdiction in the US, and in many jurisdictions overseas. Adults can consent, however. <b>Laws against bigamy and “incest” aren’t about legal, ethical, or moral consent, but about punishing people who fail to conform.</b><br /><br /><b>Relationships between adults and minors are also not a permanent social class of relationships. Worst case scenario, they wait a couple years.</b> If an adult can’t restrain themselves enough for even that long, and loses interest once the person was over, then it has no relation to love, commitment, or anything else like that. <b>By banning consanguineous relationships, though, we’re permanently barring two people not only from getting married, but from being physically intimate. Forever. </b></i>Forever<i>.<b> That’s true legal oppression.</b> Being forced to wait a couple years barely qualifies, by comparison with throwing you in jail for having sex with your life-long love - when both are much older, and are socially and economically self-sufficient. The same goes for polyamory.<br /><br />Minors are people, but they have a separate legal status, and are psychologically - and usually socially - immature. <b>Minors are a special kind of dependent, because their dependency is legally mandated.</b> It’s the way the state ensures guardianship for minors, which I don’t think anyone would have a problem with if they care about child welfare. <b>If a minor’s family can’t or shouldn’t care for them, then the state takes over guardianship.</b> Their dependency is universal and mandatory, unless proven otherwise to a court (i.e. emancipation).<br /><br /><b>Given that minors not only (frequently) lack the social or psychological ability to deal with such potentially exploitative relationship dynamics, but also lack the </b></i>legal and economic power<i><b> to extricate themselves from an exploitative situation, age of consent laws make perfect sense. Like I said in my comment (which you ignored), the law exists to provide a tool, </b></i>which they would not otherwise have<b><i>, to remove themselves from an abusive situation, and to punish those who abuse their social and </i></b>legal<i><b> authority.</b> For adults, other laws already exist to help them extricate themselves.<br /><br />We’re not Bedouins, living in a harsh physical and social environment. As a society, the developed world is rich and safe by comparison. Most people don’t leave home long-term for the first time until they’re 18. It’s hard to argue that someone has the neurological and social equipment to deal with severe power imbalances when they’re a middle class 15 year old in the developed world.<br /><br />Still, I’m not trying to force some fixed idea of child sexual psychology onto every minor. Different people are different, and teenagers are people too. Even though they’re a minority, not all minors felt traumatized by their sexual encounters with older people when they were young. Some were, but not in ways that are as debilitating. I don’t like how society tells victims how they’re supposed to react, and that victims must be tormented forever or there’s something wrong with them. However, in such a situation there wouldn’t be a risk of the minor reporting it. It would be hard to prosecute without the minor party ever assisting. <b>Unlike with consanguineous relationships, the legal threat would disappear once the minor came of age.</b><br /><br /><b>The fact that we draw a legal line for the age of consent is mostly just an unfortunate side effect of the limitations of </b></i>law itself<i><b>.</b> There are ways to mitigate it - I, for one, advocate <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statutory_rape#Romeo_and_Juliet_laws">Romeo laws</a> - but it can’t be completely avoided. <b>The issue is that, for related couples, the legal frameworks in place (as well as the taboos) don’t actually justify themselves based on any psychological, social, or legally necessary properties of the people involved. It comes entirely from a desire to use the legal system to bludgeon those who violate our taboos.</b> <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/12/unfamiliarity-leads-to-disgust-and.html">Even Westermarck</a> thought that the taboo originated from a desire to punish people for making us feel uncomfortable.<br /><br />All the stuff y'all are coming up with now is post hoc. At the end of the day, y'all think it’s gross, just like most of our ancestors, and y'all are defending a legal regime that arose originally from a desire to punish sexual non-conformists - regardless of whatever supposedly legitimate claims such laws might have. <b>Age of consent laws are clearly protecting a group that, for the vast majority of them, needs legal protection. “Incest” laws don’t protect anyone that isn’t already protected by other sex-crime laws. </b>(I still personally advocate stricter age of consent laws for relationships between dependents and guardians - not genetic parents, but </i>guardians<i>. It’s for similar reasons to why we have age of consent laws in the first place. That makes more sense than blanket “incest” laws. It protects actual victims.)<br /><br /><b>“Incest” laws aren’t about protecting the “victim”. They popped up independently of rape laws, and several countries retain laws for rape and statutory rape without having “incest” laws. “Incest” laws are about punishing both parties.</b> If the younger party (if there is one) refuses to say they were victimized, usually the court will punish them too. The more adamantly they insist it’s consensual, the more they’ll be punished.<br /><br /><b>“Incest” laws are about allowing third parties to punish “deviants” on behalf of the “community”. If people want the punishment for rape by a guardian to be harsher than general rape or statutory rape, then they should just pass a law for that specifically, and leave consenting adults relationships alone.</b> It’s not just that “incest” laws make no sense. Even by the standards of helping victims of abuse, and of preventing disabled children - the usual attempts at arguments besides “eww” - they’re way too broad and blunt to actually achieve either of those goals. <b>Even by the arguments y'all are giving, </b></i>they’re bad laws which don’t achieve what y'all want<i><b>.</b></i> </blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
There is no factual evidence that incestuous relationships are sexually orientated. Only pure bullshit of “Human rights, morality, they can love who they want”. The truth is, the thing they are doing is not healthy and massively harmful to their mental state. Which, funny enough sounds a lot like pedophiles and consenting children doesn’t it?</blockquote>
<b><i>Considering “incest” aversion is certainly genetic to </i></b>some degree<i><b>, it would make sense that some people </b></i>lack the genes for that aversion<i><b>.</b> It’s not a “sexual orientation”, per se, but it’s not like they’re doing it against their own biology. Biology, population genetics, and humans, are diverse, and that diversity </i>in and of itself<i> is not a reason to punish people. I wasn’t arguing it was a “sexual orientation”.<br /><br /><b>Regardless, I’d like to point out that if hardwired, </b></i>exclusive<i> <b>attraction for a specific class of person is the only justification for allowing it legally, then bisexuals should only be allowed to have sex and marry someone of the opposite sex. After all, their “sexual orientation” doesn’t exclude the possibility of someone of the opposite sex. As many claim for people in relationships with family, can’t they find “someone better”? Someone more… socially acceptable?</b><br /><br />The whole idea of “sexual orientation” was created to make a discernible minority out of homosexuals, to make arguing for legal rights easier. That does not mean it’s the strongest, or the best argument. <b>The truth is, people shouldn’t care what the genitals of someone else’s partner look like, or whether they are or aren’t having children. It’s an unhealthy obsession for a society to have, it violates human rights, and it corrupts the goals of a democratic legal system.</b> I just think the same applies for polyamorists and people in consanguineous relationships.<br /><br /><b>What’s your basis for saying “the thing they are doing is not healthy and massively harmful to their mental state”?</b> First, so what? I have yet to see you or anyone else argue for laws against codependent relationships. The law also doesn’t allow third parties to prosecute abusers of someone else, unless it’s a child. Only the abused adult can initiate prosecution of their partner. <b>Why do we hold people in relationships that aren’t emotionally or physically abusive to higher, arbitrary standards than drunks who beat their wives?</b><br /><br />Second, on what basis do you claim </i>any<i> of that? Your </i>opinion<i>? The self-selected cases of people who came forward because they were in abusive, coercive, or manipulative relationships with an older relative? That would just be sample bias. <b>There’s little to no understanding of people in consensual relationships, because people like you are backing up laws that make it illegal for them to out themselves, and perpetuate taboos that would threaten the careers of academics who would pursue such research. Of course, that’s probably in your interest. The harder it is to understand these people, the less evidence there is in their favor, and the more you can harangue them publicly while they shut their mouths.</b></i></blockquote>
Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-50187115915831980482015-12-21T11:36:00.001-05:002017-03-22T01:04:36.113-04:00"Do you think incest and polygamy will be legalized?" - Part 4<b><a href="http://www.futuretimeline.net/forum/topic/8103-do-you-think-incest-and-polygamy-will-be-legalized/">I came across a poll on the subject of the future of full marriage equality</a>:</b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>I
was watching a TV show recently and surprisingly, three characters (two
men and a woman) got together in a sexual AND romantic relationship -
as in, it wasn’t just a kink, they were serious about it, they even made
their relationship official to their family/friends. And it got me
thinking, do you guys think polygamy will ever be legalized? And incest?
And should they be, and if not, why? Will our society ever see it as
acceptable/normal like with gay relationships?</i></blockquote>
<b>More eugenics...</b><br />
<br />
This was a reply to <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/12/do-you-think-incest-and-polygamy-will_19.html">a response I left to OrbitalResonance</a>:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>OrbitalResonance, on 28 Apr 2014 - 09:59 AM, said:</i><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
[...]<br />
<br />
Yes, I am a fu!king Nazi. Don’t you ever use slippery slope with me you small minded buffoon. Incest is immoral while polygamy and homosexuality are acceptable. My logic is one that measures consent and consideration for the end result. There will be a line drawn.</blockquote>
<i><b>Wasn’t saying you were in favor of those things. I’m making a point, that there’s no clear logical barrier between discriminating against one group[ of consensual adults'] reproductive rights <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/nomadic-tribe-in-gorontalo-forest.html">regardless of their actual genes and behaviors</a>, and [discriminating against] another group['s].</b> Some relatives could have healthy children, some wouldn’t. It depends on individual <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-key-to-healthy-children-for.html">genomes, epigenomes, and lifestyles</a>, all of which can be determined to some degree and used to make responsible decisions (which is <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/12/genetic-testing-breathes-new-life-into.html">what Israel did with the Samaritans</a>). <b>I think we should have free genetic screening and counseling for everyone, since it makes it easier for people to make responsible reproductive decisions.</b><br /><br />The thing is, people who would never advocate for using state force to control people’s consensual sexual and reproductive lives will all of a sudden be okay [with it] when it comes to “incest”. It’s just because that’s the only logical sounding argument most can come up with besides “eww”. <b>I’m saying a) it’s bad eugenic policy anyway, and b) people should be more careful suddenly becoming pro eugenics just because it serves them on one issue. After all, if we’re policing the gene pool and trying to prevent abnormal births, <a href="http://www.slate.com/content/slate/blogs/humannature/2008/05/19/incest_and_delayed_motherhood.html">why aren’t we banning sex for people who are past middle age</a>?</b> The reason a eugenic argument allows for bad logical consequences, is because it’s being applied arbitrarily to a large group of people based on an act that’s not necessarily even reproductive. (I also don’t think eugenics is a proper role for a democratic state.)<br /><br />Actually, let me quote that Slate article:</i><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b>My guess is that this is how governments will manage unconventional sex practices in the next century. We can’t stop people from doing what they want to do. We’ll tell them what’s generally dangerous. And if they can adequately reduce the medical risks, by wearing a condom or taking a genetic test, we’ll look the other way. We’ll speak the language of science, or none at all.</b></blockquote>
</blockquote>
Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-35054131334511290222015-12-20T13:36:00.003-05:002017-03-22T01:04:53.839-04:00"Do you think incest and polygamy will be legalized?" - Part 3<b><a href="http://www.futuretimeline.net/forum/topic/8103-do-you-think-incest-and-polygamy-will-be-legalized/">I came across a poll on the subject of the future of full marriage equality</a>:</b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>I
was watching a TV show recently and surprisingly, three characters (two
men and a woman) got together in a sexual AND romantic relationship -
as in, it wasn’t just a kink, they were serious about it, they even made
their relationship official to their family/friends. And it got me
thinking, do you guys think polygamy will ever be legalized? And incest?
And should they be, and if not, why? Will our society ever see it as
acceptable/normal like with gay relationships?</i></blockquote>
<b>Science!!</b><br />
<a name='more'></a><blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>Death, on 26 Apr 2014 - 6:30 PM, said:</i><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>Your statistic is also
incredibly high, and smacks of stereotypes and not science. Of all the
reasonably well done studies I’ve seen, the most pessimistic estimate
for genetic problems for 1st degree relatives is 30%. [The more
realistic estimate I’ve seen is around 11%, 1.5% lower than for middle
aged women. (That’s for a single generation, of course.)]</i></blockquote>
<a href="http://www.lotscave.com/files/Journal%20of%20Genetic%20Counseling%20%28Vol.%2011,%20No.%202,%20April%204,%202002%29.pdf">http://www.lotscave….il 4, 2002).pdf</a> :D<br />
^Meta-analysis of genetic defects due to incest<br />
Incest
is not like other recessive characteristics, the risk of serious birth
defects and premature death is about 42% of births with another 14%
having mild retardation making over half of children born to first
degree relatives have some kind of genetic defect:<b> </b></blockquote>
<blockquote>
<a href="https://my.psychologytoday.com/files/imagecache/article-inline-half/blogs/44242/2012/09/106847-104502.png" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: 1em; margin-right: 1em;"><img border="0" height="320" src="https://my.psychologytoday.com/files/imagecache/article-inline-half/blogs/44242/2012/09/106847-104502.png" style="cursor: move;" width="236" /></a></blockquote>
<i>Ah, yes. I have seen pieces of this one around. (I appreciate the source, by the way.)<br /><br />The section on 2nd and 1st degree consanguineous unions is taken from Bittles’ chapter (2nd chapter) in “Inbreeding, Incest, and the Incest Taboo”. One of the points to remember is that the “excess” rate of defect is ~30%, which is important because the control for Bittles’ meta-analysis showed a defect rate of ~8%, which is higher than would be expected. I’ve seen other studies (some are sighted in the cousin studies of that very paper) with defect rates of 1-4% in the general population.<br /><br /><b>Also, they quote Bittles himself from <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/alan-bittles-on-his-own-meta-study.html">that same meta-analysis saying that the data for anything closer than 1st cousins is highly dubious</a>, since finding unbiased samples is nearly impossible given the current legal consequences in most places, <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-deformity-stereotype-is-old-one.html">the social stigma</a> almost universally, and the general lack of academic motivation on the subject. He later on says that, if only those consanguineous couples are considered who had no mental or physical defects themselves, <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/alan-bittles-on-his-own-meta-study.html">their children don’t have a significantly higher rate of defect than the control group</a>.</b><br /><br />The samples in those studies have an elevated proportion of people who were themselves mentally or physically disabled (many, even most of those children are the result of abuse and rape, not consensual unions). The children were also frequently found out because of mental or physical problems which tipped off doctors. Just in general, loving, consenting adult relatives (closer than 3rd degree), who chose to have their baby or chose to carry it to term without abortion, and who are not themselves mentally or physically disabled or disturbed, are the hardest group to get in studies. They’re almost impossible to find, and they gain nothing from taking part.<br /><br /><b>I’ll just point out that in the cousin studies in that paper, which have much better samples, the rate of defect above the control group was only a few percentage points. Some of those in those studies were even [double 1st-cousins], and so count as 2nd degree relatives. Despite that, we’re asked to believe that when the degree of relation is one degree closer, the probability of defect explodes.</b> <a href="http://www.larasig.com/node/2020">I find that questionable</a>, and the studies on the subject are acknowledged (sometimes by those doing the studies) to have little use for generalization.<br /><br /><b>None of that sounds like a sound basis for abusive, draconian punishments, blind social stigma, or marital discrimination. My other point also still stands, that <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/nomadic-tribe-in-gorontalo-forest.html">a population wide statistic doesn’t tell you jack about any individual couple’s chances</a>, given <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-balance-between-inbreeding-and.html">further knowledge of their genomes, lifestyles, and family history</a>.</b> Even if the probability actually was that high, it still would place them, as a population, at similar or lower risk than those with known dominant harmful genes. (I know of a few 1st degree couples with several healthy children, not to mention that <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-evolution-of-inbreeding-avoidance.html">a purely genetic view</a> of <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/more-help-for-ensuring-healthy-babies.html">“inbreeding depression”</a> violates <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/why-marrying-your-cousin-may-pay-off.html">current scientific knowledge</a>.)<br /><br />Besides, I would question single studies with small, biased samples that show such alarmingly high rates over a single generation, given <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/consensual-incest-never-happens.html">all the historical cases</a> known of where several generations of 1st degree inbreeding had little to no effect. <b>That’s another thing mentioned in “Inbreeding, Incest, and the Incest Taboo”: we have the mummies of Tutankhamen, his relatives, some ancestors, and other Pharaohs who were known offspring of siblings - several generations of siblings even - and no-one has found a regular pattern of deformity.</b> The results of consanguineous marriages over many generations are heavily dependent on what kind of gene-pool the original people were coming from.</i><b><br /></b></blockquote>
At this point, Tutankhamen is known to have had disabilities, but he
was the end of a long line of arranged consanguineous unions, so that’s not
surprising.Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-48048986697718264592015-12-19T17:20:00.002-05:002017-03-22T01:13:31.130-04:00The "deformity" stereotype is an old one<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>Perhaps no opinion, upon subjects of a medical character, is more widely diffused among the public, or more tenaciously held, than that the results of the marriage of blood relations are almost uniformly unfortunate. This opinion has been so long held and so often reiterated, that by sheer force of these circumstances alone it has come to be regarded as an unquestioned and unquestionable fact.</i></blockquote>
- Dr. Bell, a New England physician in 1859Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-51813912477462669142015-12-19T10:51:00.002-05:002017-03-22T01:13:38.095-04:00"Do you think incest and polygamy will be legalized?" - Part 2<b><a href="http://www.futuretimeline.net/forum/topic/8103-do-you-think-incest-and-polygamy-will-be-legalized/">I came across a poll on the subject of the future of full marriage equality</a>:</b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>I was watching a TV show recently and surprisingly, three characters (two men and a woman) got together in a sexual AND romantic relationship - as in, it wasn’t just a kink, they were serious about it, they even made their relationship official to their family/friends. And it got me thinking, do you guys think polygamy will ever be legalized? And incest? And should they be, and if not, why? Will our society ever see it as acceptable/normal like with gay relationships?</i></blockquote>
<b>The argument continues:</b><br />
<a name='more'></a><br />
The first few posters and replies I saw were above average in their knowledge of the issues and their open mindedness. A majority have even voted in favor of full marriage equality on the poll. For example:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>TheAsianGuy_LOL, on 27 Apr 2014 - 5:47 PM, said:</i><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
I do believe the both incest and polygamy will be legal in the future. With genetic mods and VR, they wouldn’t be much of a problem. IMHO, I agree on only incest however. No, I don’t have sexual relations or feelings with my own relatives, but in the future, people may choose to fall in love with their siblings or cousins if they happen too (like in the many news of it) and because of genetic mods, won’t lead to genetic mutations. I agree [...], they won’t all love you and it’s terrible. If I had a girl, I would love her with my life.</blockquote>
<b><i>This is actually an important point. The advent of (soon to be commercially viable) genetic engineering and gene therapy will completely break the relationship between the genes of the parents and the genes of their children. Under such circumstances, the whole idea of policing peoples sex and reproductive lives for eugenic reasons is ridiculous.</i></b></blockquote>
However, it only took one more page to get to the usual stuff: knee-jerk eugenics, unjustified “eww gross”, ad hominem attacks on supporters, and jokes about pedophilia. Fun, right?<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>ayubelwhishi, on 27 Apr 2014 - 9:10 PM, said:</i><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
If incest is legalized so should pedophilia! Man-Boy marriage rights for all!</blockquote>
<i><b>Child abuse is not the same as consenting sex between adults who love each other. Do I really have to explain why we need to have a legal framework in place to allow minors who are sexually abused by adults to get help from the law in getting away from their abuser(s)?</b> The picture makes it seem like a joke, in which case the equation of consenting adults to child molesters is disgusting. It makes me wonder if you really think that two 30 year old siblings having sex is morally equivalent to a child being raped…</i></blockquote>
...<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>OrbitalResonance, on 27 Apr 2014 - 8:25 PM, said:</i><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
Never to incest. But normalize polyamory. Relationship policy should be by consent. But incest is the exception because of genetic defects and an evolutionary implanted emotional abhoration of it. Plus we have a duty to the potential offspring to limit potential social and physical deformities.</blockquote>
<i>So you’re a fan of eugenics then? <b>It’s acceptable for the state to throw people in jail for having sex when it </b></i>may<i><b> result in pregnancy, and that child </b></i>may<b> </b><i><b>have deformities?</b> Then I’m sure you’d approve of policies that throw anyone with known genetic diseases in jail. Maybe we should throw people in jail longer, the worse their disease is.<br /><br /><b>And why should we stop? What counts as ensuring the population’s genetic health?</b> Should we doom babies to suffer, growing up with low intelligence that won’t allow them to be competitive in the modern economy? Maybe we should ensure that people with low test scores aren’t allowed to reproduce. Reductio ad absurdum. I could keep going, getting all the way back to the original use of eugenics: “sterilizing” poor people and racial minorities.<br /><br />Besides, even then eugenicists knew that blanket bans on having children with close kin made no sense, because some families have more or fewer genetic diseases than the general population. <b>“We have a duty”?</b> Who are we to decide that a child with a heart problem, or a slightly weaker immune system, is unworthy of life or can’t contribute value to society, when both their parents want them and are willing to raise them? <b>That’s some seriously paternalistic, potentially anti-democratic logic, which can be used to deny human dignity to people with any kind of disability.</b><br /><br />And “emotional abhoration”? <b>Since when is bigotry a justification for bigotry?</b> Homophobia, a lack of exposure to normal homosexual couples, and people's personal aversions to having sex with someone they have no attraction toward, contributed (and contributes) to straight people being disgusted by the thought of homosexual sex. <b><a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/12/unfamiliarity-leads-to-disgust-and.html">It’s a known psychological mechanism</a>: personal disgust inspired by someone else’s actions, combined with a desire to enforce conformity, result in taboos.</b> By your logic, any place where homophobia is rampant should be justified in outlawing homosexual sex acts and making same-sex marriage illegal. <b>I hope we base our laws and ethics on more solid things than purely what’s popular.</b></i></blockquote>
...<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>Ryan94, on 27 Apr 2014 - 8:24 PM, said:</i><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<b>I can’t believe you sick f*cks want incest legalised. (12 out of 21 voters think incest should be legalised as of when i’m writing this).</b> Just because it’s ‘between two consenting adults’ (as it is often repeated here), doesn’t make it right.<br />
<br />
This is between many consenting adults. Want this legalised? <a href="http://www.news.com.au/world/new-twist-in-creepy-german-cannibal-case/story-fndir2ev-1226777979030">http://www.news.com.au/world/new-twist-in-creepy-german-cannibal-case/story-fndir2ev-1226777979030</a><br />
<b><br />[The link is about a case of consensual cannibalism.]</b></blockquote>
<i><b>Do you really not see the distinction between two siblings meeting for the first time at 30 and falling in love and having vanilla sex, and a man being eaten alive?</b> It’s not only a question of consent, but also a question of harm. Who are two relatives, or two family members (remember, step- and adopted family count under some laws) actually hurting by being in a relationship (except for making you feel uncomfortable)? <b>You mind your business, they mind theirs, and life goes on.</b><br /><br />And trust me, it happens, and it may happen to your kids whether you like it or not. Just like homosexuality, even as a minority act, it’s a fact of life. Given how people like you behave, they’d likely hide it from you. Are we really trying to run our society on the dictum, “Out of sight, out of mind”? Seems like a great way to crush good relationships and let bad ones fester.<br /><br /><b>There’s still a debate to be had on whether someone should be legally allowed to consent to being cannibalized, but it’s related to </b></i>the ethics of euthanasia<b><i>, not </i></b>consanguineous sex and marriage<i><b>. They are </b></i>clearly<b> </b><i><b>separate issues.</b> Just because the concept of “consent” pops up in both, does not mean they have overlap.</i></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>Anyway, you skipped a lot of the prior arguments. Most of the people in loving, consenting adult relationships with a relative didn’t even grow up with that person. They’re relatives, but not family. And many other people fall in love with step-siblings or adopted siblings - is that or isn’t it “incest”? Some states consider it “incest”, but still consider having sex with a relative you never grew up with “incest”. <b>Which is it then: family, or relatives? It can’t be both and still make any sense.</b> One implies social engineering, and the other implies eugenics.<br /><br /><b>And why isn’t it “right”? Give an actual reason besides the fact that it’s what you were told, and that you personally wouldn’t do it.</b> The consenting couples I’ve talked to, read about, and seen, are quite normal in every other way. (Though their lives are made hard by being beaten by parents, ostracized by friends, and forced into hiding from the law.) Many of them have perfectly happy, healthy children, and many of the others can’t have children or don’t want to.</i></blockquote>
I'd like to add something: this isn't even just euthanasia; this isn't
somebody at the end of their life asking for a quick and easy way out,
this is prolonged, excruciating physical torture for immediate sexual
gratification. Is that really comparable to <i>anything</i>? Euthanasia's just the least <i>not</i> like it.
Consenting adults falling in love and having a family together,
contributing positively to society and the next generation, are about as
far from being tortured to death as you can get. Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-52795689600531568842015-12-18T15:00:00.000-05:002017-03-22T01:05:15.927-04:00Help for Family and Friends of Incestuous Siblings<div style="text-align: left;">
<a data-mce-href="https://app.box.com/s/npt437hdmps88kqohdlb" href="https://app.box.com/s/npt437hdmps88kqohdlb" target="_blank"><i>(Here is a PDF version of the full text)</i></a></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br data-mce-bogus="1" /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>This is for the benefit of friends or family of romantically involved siblings, who may have recently discovered their secret.</b> Though I’ve used “incest” in the title, I won’t continue to use the terms “incest” or “incestuous,” I will use <a data-mce-href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2010/09/why-i-prefer-term-consanguineous.html" href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2010/09/why-i-prefer-term-consanguineous.html" target="_blank">“consanguinamory” and “consanguineous”</a> (pronounced “con-sang-gwin-<i>am</i>-or-ee” and “con-sang-<i>gwin</i>-ee-us). “Incest” is too loaded a word for intelligent discussion, and I only ever use it for sexual abuse. <b>If I say “consanguinamory”, assume I am talking about consensual sex.</b> (I’m going to assume that the couple is opposite-sex, but most of this also applies for same-sex couples.) <b>Remember: <a data-mce-href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2010/03/theres-difference-between-love-and.html" href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2010/03/theres-difference-between-love-and.html" target="_blank">there’s a difference between love and abuse</a>.</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>This
might be long, but bear with me. All of your concerns are about to be
addressed. If you truly love them, you will have the patience to read
this.</b><br />
<b> </b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b></b></div>
<a name='more'></a><div style="text-align: left;">
</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>- INTRODUCTION</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>First, stop and take a breath</b>.
I know that this must be a lot to take in. I seriously doubt that
you’ve ever sat down to consider the possibility of this happening. <b>I
don’t expect you to be calm, but I do expect you to care enough about
their well-being to seriously consider what I’m about to say.</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
Did you discover them accidentally? If so, talk to them individually – <i>with an open mind</i> – and make sure that there was no coercion. Ignore the taboo nature of what you just found out. <b>If
you have no evidence of coercion or manipulation, then do not try to
project abuse where there is none, and do not force them to internalize
your own sense of what’s “taboo.”</b> Why would you ever want to
burden them with so much unnecessary guilt and shame? Talk to them
together, and get the story from them, calmly. See how they act
together. <b>Remember to treat them with respect, especially if they’re already adults; it’s what you would want for yourself.</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
Did they come out to you on their own? Then there’s even less chance that there was any coercion involved. <b>In fact, coming out to you is one of the bravest and most trusting gifts they could ever give you.</b> Not only is their love <i>extremely</i> taboo, but even if they are adults, <a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/88910582694/i-decided-the-old-map-wasnt-good-enough-so-ive" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/global-map-of-incest-laws.html" target="_blank">in most places on Earth they could be thrown in jail</a>, possibly for the rest of their lives. <a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/86552350632/more-and-more-bigotry-and-abuse" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/more-and-more-bigotry-and-abuse.html"><b><i>You could get them thrown in jail</i></b></a><b>.</b> Every
person they tell is a potential threat who could ruin their lives
forever, getting them locked up for years and permanently placed on the
sex-offender registry. And yet, despite all that, they told you. They
could have lied – it wouldn’t have been easy, but they could have – but
they told <i>you</i>.<b> However much you </b><b><i>thought</i> they trusted and loved you, they just proved that their true trust and love is greater.</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>If they say that it’s consensual, and there’s no evidence it isn’t – especially if they came forward on their own – how can you <i>still</i> assume that no person could consent to it?</b> How can you possibly disrespect their intelligence and agency so much? <b>Have you ever had any other reason to doubt that they are of sound mind and soul? Then why should this </b><b><i>one thing</i> counteract <i>years</i></b><b> of personal experience?</b> Did
they hurt anyone? Of course not. If you think there must be something
wrong, it’s because that’s the story society has been spoon-feeding you.</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>Consider: if one of them was adopted – if they weren’t genetically related – would you still feel as uncomfortable as you do?</b> Because
if you wouldn’t, then there’s no good reason for your discomfort now;
socially, whether adopted or not, their relationship would be the same.
If they weren’t even raised together, then in no way are they family,
though they are blood relatives. Ignore for a moment the particular,
taboo nature of their relationship. <b>Just consider them as
individual people. If your daughter/sister/friend was dating a man like
her brother, knowing everything you do about </b><b><i>him</i>,
would you be displeased, or happy? If your son/brother/friend were
dating a woman like his sister, knowing everything you do about <i>her</i>, would you be upset, or glad?</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
If
you are their parent, unless you’ve done an awful job of raising them,
my guess is that, before you found out, you were quite proud of them. <b>Well,
they’re the same people now, the same people who made you proud.
Wouldn’t you want your daughter to date a man who made you as proud as
your son? Wouldn’t you want your son to date a woman who made you as
proud as your daughter?</b> Aren’t they more to you, and to each other, than just their genes?</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>- MENTAL HEALTH</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
Society
has taught you to feel a certain way about consanguinamory. It was
handed to you, and you accepted it without much thought.<b> You’ve probably never met anyone who was openly sexually involved with a close family member.</b> This
has allowed you to go around without seriously considering what such a
relationship might look like, how it could work, and how you should feel
about it. <b>It has allowed you to absorb the limited perspective
put out by the media, giving you a narrow, stereotyped view of what’s
possible.</b> You have been listening to <a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/75542042592/and-this-is-why-diverse-representations-in-media" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/75542042592/and-this-is-why-diverse-representations-in-media" target="_blank">only one side of the story</a> your whole life.</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<blockquote>
<a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/83869108057/westermarck-suggested-that-humans-have-an" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/12/unfamiliarity-leads-to-disgust-and.html" target="_blank">"Westermarck suggested that humans have an inclination to prevent other people from behaving in ways they would not themselves behave. On this view, left-handers were in the past forced to adopt the habits of right-handers because the right-handers found left-handers disturbing. In the same way, those who were known to have had sexual intercourse with close kin were discriminated against."</a></blockquote>
</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>Just because you don’t <i>know</i> that you’ve met such a couple before, doesn’t mean that you haven’t met one.</b> In fact, as you <a data-mce-href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2011/10/artificial-limbs-in-official-family.html" href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2011/10/artificial-limbs-in-official-family.html" target="_blank">follow your family tree further</a> and further back in time, the probability that <a data-mce-href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2013/08/what-genealogists-know.html" href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2013/08/what-genealogists-know.html" target="_blank">you will find at least one consanguineous couple</a> approaches 100%. <b><a data-mce-href="http://www.ethicaltreatment.org/research.htm" href="http://www.ethicaltreatment.org/research.htm" target="_blank">Self-reported surveys</a> have
found that as much as 10% of college students have had consensual
sexual contact with a sibling (mostly childhood experimentation). (If we
extrapolate this to the whole population, this equates to about 30
million people in the U.S.)</b> The fact that a couple is related
tells you exactly nothing about what their relationship is like, nor
whether it is consenting or not, nor whether it is fulfilling or not.
Each of those things is independent of their blood relationship.</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
The
cultural stereotype of such relationships is that they are
dysfunctional, self-destructive, and abusive; anyone who willingly
participates must somehow be mentally ill. Besides this view being
incredibly condescending, it also has no meaningful basis. What is
considered “healthy” and “unhealthy” changes, and is very subjective. On
what standard are we to decide what constitutes mental “illness?” Is it
that they’re doing something they know society disapproves of? <b>I
don’t think any reasonable person thinks we should use the
preconceptions of the majority to decide what constitutes mental
illness.</b> It must be, then, that the behavior is self-destructive, or causes them to destroy the lives of others.</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<blockquote>
<a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/81732311357/all-that-we-can-surmise-of-humankinds-genetic" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/81732311357/all-that-we-can-surmise-of-humankinds-genetic" target="_blank">"</a><b><a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/81732311357/all-that-we-can-surmise-of-humankinds-genetic" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/81732311357/all-that-we-can-surmise-of-humankinds-genetic" target="_blank">All
that we can surmise of humankind’s genetic history argues for a more
liberal sexual morality, in which sexual practices are to be regarded
first as bonding devices and only second as a means for reproduction.</a></b><a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/81732311357/all-that-we-can-surmise-of-humankinds-genetic" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/81732311357/all-that-we-can-surmise-of-humankinds-genetic" target="_blank">"</a></blockquote>
</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
Do
you see anything indicating that those things are happening? Aside from
their experience of bigotry, do they seem unusually disturbed? <b>Are
they lashing out at themselves, at each other, or at you? Are they
unable to operate normally in a social environment? If not, then you
have no reason to think they are any less mentally healthy than before.</b> In fact, their love may have made them <i>healthier</i>, by bringing them fulfillment and peace.</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<blockquote>
<a data-mce-href="http://www.ethicaltreatment.org/research.htm" href="http://www.ethicaltreatment.org/research.htm" target="_blank">“From a scientific perspective, we do not know what constitutes normal childhood sexual behavior or feelings. […] <b>Sexual
behavior varies drastically among different groups of people due to
their moral beliefs, values, social class, and culture.</b> Sexual
feelings and behaviors also vary widely among youth due to individual
differences and variations in development. […] Some of the behaviors
mentioned above are harmful. <b>However, many are socially
unacceptable because they would be classified as immoral or indecent by
many people, not because they are harmful.</b>”</a></blockquote>
</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
As
I’ve said, you’ve probably already met a consanguineous couple. They
couldn’t have stood out as any more dysfunctional than the average
couple, or you would have become suspicious that something was wrong. <b>Unfortunately, prejudice keeps people in the closet, which perpetuates ignorance, which itself perpetuates prejudice.</b> You have been given the rare opportunity to examine your own assumptions, and <a data-mce-href="http://dianerinellaauthor.com/denying-rights/" href="http://dianerinellaauthor.com/denying-rights/" target="_blank">break your own cycle of prejudice</a>. Most people have never gotten that chance.</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<blockquote>
<a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/83252190236/sexual-morality-is-too-important-to-the-happiness" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/83252190236/sexual-morality-is-too-important-to-the-happiness" target="_blank">"Sexual
morality is too important to the happiness and well-being of us all to
be determined by traditions, superstition, politics, economics, and
religious taboo."</a></blockquote>
</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
The “pedophile” label has long been used to brand sexual minorities as deviants, as threats to society and to our children. <b>Homosexuality
has long been heavily attacked as pedophilic, and in the past when
people had limited experience with open, healthy same-sex relationships,
they believed the propaganda.</b> Now that so many homosexual
couples are out in the open, we realize that there is a clear difference
between the consenting majority, and the predatory minority.</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>Even today, opponents of legal rights for homosexuals <a data-mce-href="http://www.rense.com/general24/reportpedophilia.htm" href="http://www.rense.com/general24/reportpedophilia.htm" target="_blank">try to brand the gay rights agenda as pro-pedophilia</a>.</b> There is <a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/76080108500/a-video-by-human-rights-watch-documenting-the" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/76080108500/a-video-by-human-rights-watch-documenting-the" target="_blank">a homophobic Neo-Nazi “vigilante” group in Russia called “Occupy Pedophilia,”</a> but
it isn’t pedophiles they’re targeting: they target young gay men. They
go around torturing them, sometimes to death, and use “fighting
pedophilia” as their implicit justification.</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>It is the same for consanguinamory.</b> The vast majority of cases that come to light are the most unhealthy. (In <a data-mce-href="http://www.ethicaltreatment.org/research.htm" href="http://www.ethicaltreatment.org/research.htm" target="_blank">the previously quoted summary of studies</a>,
only 30% of respondents answered that their reaction to sexual contact
with a sibling was “negative.” Of that 30%, 25% were non-consensual. The
remaining 5% may be due to stigma and shame.) <b>Those in healthy,
fulfilling relationships never come forward, and we only see them in
the news when they are caught and thrown in jail.</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
The consanguinamorous are lumped in with a predatory minority, and because of the closet, the public buys it. <b>Just
because these siblings love each other, it doesn’t mean that they want
to have sex with any other relatives, and it doesn’t mean that they are
pedophiles.</b> Despite the propaganda, their relationship does not automatically mean they are abusive and emotionally damaged.</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
Besides, <i>so what</i> if every <i>other</i> consanguineous relationship in history has been abusive and emotionally damaging? <b>We consider people as individuals, and don’t punish them based on the sins of others.</b> Even in murder trials, attenuating circumstances are considered. <b>If murderers get the benefit of the doubt, if murderers get to be treated as individuals, then why not these siblings?</b> Even if every other relationship like theirs was damaging, that doesn’t automatically mean theirs is. <b>If
they are the only loving, consenting blood-related couple in the world,
then that’s all the more reason to treat them with respect and dignity.</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>- ABNORMALITY</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>However, they are <i>not</i> the only siblings to have a consenting, loving relationship.</b> It
is not some newfangled idea. Societies’ attitudes towards various
sexual relationships – especially familial – have changed all throughout
history. <b>They are in illustrious company, among some of the greatest people to ever live.</b> These are just a handful of the examples known, and there are certainly many more lost to history.</div>
<ul style="text-align: left;">
<li><a data-mce-href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Bidatsu#Genealogy" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emperor_Bidatsu#Genealogy" target="_blank">Japanese emperor Bidatsu married his half-sister, Empress Suiko.</a></li>
<li><a data-mce-href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwangjong_of_Goryeo#Family" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gwangjong_of_Goryeo#Family" target="_blank">Korean king Gwangjong also married his half-sister, Queen Daemok.</a></li>
<li><a data-mce-href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huayna_Capac#Background_and_family" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huayna_Capac#Background_and_family" target="_blank">Inca emperor Huayna Capac married his full-sister, Coya Cusirimay.</a></li>
<li><a data-mce-href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Rama_V#The_young_king" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/King_Rama_V#The_young_king" target="_blank">Siamese king Rama married four of his half-sisters.</a> (This was in the 1800’s, too.)</li>
<li>In Bali, to this day, <a data-mce-href="http://www.baliblog.com/travel-tips/bali-travel/twins-and-customs-in-bali-and-java.html" href="http://www.baliblog.com/travel-tips/bali-travel/twins-and-customs-in-bali-and-java.html" target="_blank">opposite-sex twins are considered natural soul mates, and are expected to get married</a>.</li>
<li>An aristocratic Athenian woman, <a data-mce-href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elpinice" href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elpinice" target="_blank">Elpinice, was married to her half-brother </a>until
she divorced him and married another man to settle a family debt. Upon
her death, she was buried with her brother, not her husband.<b> In
Athens, familial relation was considered to be passed on through the
mother, so if two siblings did not have the same mother, they could get
legally married. In Sparta, it was passed on through the father. This
shows how <a data-mce-href="http://family.jrank.org/pages/857/Incest-Inbreeding-Taboos.html" href="http://family.jrank.org/pages/857/Incest-Inbreeding-Taboos.html" target="_blank">contrived</a> and <a data-mce-href="http://family.jrank.org/pages/856/Incest-Inbreeding-Taboos-Sociocultural-Factors-in-Development-Incest-Regulations.html" href="http://family.jrank.org/pages/856/Incest-Inbreeding-Taboos-Sociocultural-Factors-in-Development-Incest-Regulations.html" target="_blank">arbitrary</a> our <a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/86264349185/the-roman-catholic-churchs-definition-of-incest" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-catholic-church-incest-and-taboo-as.html" target="_blank">concepts of “blood-relation” and “incest”</a> are.</b> Even now, our taboos are pre-modern.</li>
<li>Because
of the unique, divine status of pharaohs in Egyptian society, it was
common for pharaohs to marry within their immediate family, to preserve
the purity of their divine bloodline. <a data-mce-href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutankhamun#Life" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutankhamun#Life" target="_blank">Pharaoh Tutankhamen was both the product of a sibling marriage, and himself had a sibling as his wife.</a></li>
<li>The practice continued under the Ptolemies, and <a data-mce-href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopatra" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopatra" target="_blank">Pharaoh Cleopatra was married to each of her brothers until they died</a>, leaving her the sole pharaoh. <b>By then, the practice of sibling marriage had spread to all classes of Egyptian society, <a data-mce-href="http://family.jrank.org/pages/854/Incest-Inbreeding-Taboos-Sibling-Marriage-Human-Isolates.html" href="http://family.jrank.org/pages/854/Incest-Inbreeding-Taboos-Sibling-Marriage-Human-Isolates.html" target="_blank">providing the only case in history where full-sibling marriage was not only allowed, widespread</a>. As much as a fifth of all marriages were sibling marriages.</b> The
practice continued under the Romans, but was eliminated by Roman
pressure: the Romans refused to make anyone who married a sibling a
Roman citizen. Egyptian society survived all of this sibling marriage,
and is still around today. <b>They have the same number of toes and fingers as everyone else, so clearly it was not as dangerous as the stereotype says.</b></li>
<li>Egypt, however, was not the only place to extol such unions. <b>In
the old traditions of Zoroastrianism, consanguineous unions were seen
as especially sacred, because they reflected the consanguineous creation
of the first gods.</b> The practice was called “xwēdōdah”. <a data-mce-href="http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/marriage-next-of-kin" href="http://www.iranicaonline.org/articles/marriage-next-of-kin" target="_blank">"According to the <i>Pahlavi Rivāyat […]</i>, three primordial <i>xwēdōdah</i>s
provide the mythical prototypes for the human ones. […] [The last,]
that of a brother and sister producing further pairs of brothers and
sisters is like that of Mašī and Mašyānī.”</a> <b>At one point Zoroastrianism was the most widespread and powerful religion in the world.</b> Because of Zarathustra’s preachings, Zoroastrian rulers entered into consanguineous marriages from time to time.</li>
<li><b>The Seleucid emperors of Iran started to marry their sisters, like the Ptolemies in Egypt.</b> <a data-mce-href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laodice_IV#First_Marriage" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laodice_IV#First_Marriage" target="_blank">The first such empress of the Seleucid Empire was Laodice IV.</a> <b>She married her oldest brother, whom accounts say she loved dearly, and bore him a daughter.</b> When
he died, she married her second oldest brother, and bore him three
children. When he then died, she married her youngest brother, and bore
him two children. <b>There are no records stating that any of these children were anything but healthy.</b></li>
<li><a data-mce-href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helena_of_Adiabene" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/queen-helena-and-king-monobaz-i-of.html" target="_blank">Helena, Queen of Adiabene, came from a Zoroastrian family, and was married to her brother King Monobaz I, a vassal of the Parthian Empire of Iran.</a> <b>As
an adult she converted to Judaism, while remaining married to her
brother. She and her brother are mentioned in the Talmud for their
generosity towards Judea, sending gifts to the Temple, and sending food
in times of famine.</b> She bore her brother two sons, and later in life moved to Jerusalem. <b><a data-mce-href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izates_bar_Monobaz" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Izates_bar_Monobaz" target="_blank">Both of their sons became known as righteous kings</a>, <a data-mce-href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monobaz_II" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monobaz_II" target="_blank">and friends to the Jewish people</a>.</b></li>
<li>Many Polynesian societies had <a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/85281776649/one-of-the-previous-paramount-chiefs-purayasi" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-powerful-do-as-they-please-while.html" target="_blank">royal families who practiced sibling marriage</a>. <b>Not only was it common, but <a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/85280623339/brother-kings-married-sister-queens-flouting" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/consanguinamory-may-have-been-pivotal.html" target="_blank">the early periods of all modern societies may have been ruled by royal sibling couples</a>.</b></li>
<li><b>Like other Polynesian cultures, it was common practice in Hawai’ian society for royals to marry within their own family.</b> The
practice was actually encouraged by Hawai’ian elders. When Christian
missionaries came to Hawai’i, they tried to crush the practice. <a data-mce-href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamehameha_III#Marriage_and_children" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/king-kamehameha-iii-and-princess.html" target="_blank">The last Hawai’ian king to have a consanguineous relationship was Hawai’ian king Kamehameha III, the first Christian king of Hawai’i.</a> However, he didn’t succumb to the wishes of the missionaries. <b>At an early age, he had fallen in love with his sister Nahi’ena’ena, and wanted to marry her.</b> Because
of opposition by the missionaries, he did not, but he also held off
marrying the preferred choice of the missionaries for many years. <b><a data-mce-href="http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2010/09/tut-dna/dobbs-text/3" href="http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2010/09/tut-dna/dobbs-text/3" target="_blank">“</a></b><b><a data-mce-href="http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2010/09/tut-dna/dobbs-text/3" href="http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/2010/09/tut-dna/dobbs-text/3" target="_blank">Bingham
learned that even after King Kamehameha III of Hawaii accepted
Christian rule, he slept for several years with his sister, Princess
Nahi’ena’ena — pleasing their elders but disturbing the missionaries.
They did it, says historian Carando, because they loved each other.”</a></b> He only married the wife favored by the missionaries after his sister had died.</li>
<li>The Romantic poet Lord Byron <a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/85443783579/at-the-age-of-twenty-five-the-poet-byron-entered" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-poet-byron-his-half-sister-augusta.html" target="_blank">had an affair</a> with his half-sister Augusta Leigh. The evidence points to Augusta Leigh’s third daughter Elizabeth, as being the child of Byron.</li>
<li><b><a data-mce-href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemisia_II_of_Caria" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/king-mausolus-and-queen-artemisia-ii-of.html" target="_blank">The love between Artemisia II and her brother Mausolus was so profound, they became symbols in Greek writing of love and devotion.</a></b> Mausolus
was a rich Greek vassal of the Persian Empire in what is now Turkey.
Under the reign of he and his sister, their territory flourished, and
they built many monuments. <b>Their final monument was so glorious, it became known as <a data-mce-href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mausoleum_at_Halicarnassus" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mausoleum_at_Halicarnassus" target="_blank">one of the seven wonders of the world: a giant tomb, to house their ashes</a>.</b> (It’s from “Mausolus” that we get the word “mausoleum.”) <b>When
her brother Mausolus died, Artemisia’s grief was so great that she
ritually drank a bit of his ashes every day. She ruled well for two
years, but eventually wasted away from sorrow.</b> Her ashes were sealed in the Mausoleum with what remained of her brother’s. <b>Their tomb would last for over a thousand years, amazing everyone who saw it.</b></li>
<li><a data-mce-href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_of_Caria" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ada_of_Caria" target="_blank">The sister of Mausolus and Artemisia, Ada, also married their brother Idreus.</a> She
was deposed by the third brother, Pixodarus, but was reinstated by
Alexander the Great when she adopted Alexander as her son and heir. <b>She was known as a ruler who was beloved by her people.</b></li>
</ul>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>Not only are they in glorious past company, but in beautiful present company as well</b>.
In the past, only royals and aristocrats could break society’s rules
and marry whom they wished. Why should the right to love whom they wish
to love be denied to the common man or woman? Romantic sibling
relationships are much more common than most realize. <b>Many of these relationships, when allowed to flourish, grow into something astoundingly beautiful.</b></div>
<ul style="text-align: left;">
<li>A sister: <a data-mce-href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2010/11/happy-couple-that-deserves-equality.html" href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2010/11/happy-couple-that-deserves-equality.html" target="_blank">“We
knew we couldn’t hide it from our parents forever. We didn’t want to
hide it, but we were nervous about talking about it with them. However,
they figured out something was going on before we told them. Looking
back, I’m not surprised. We spent lots of time together and they knew we
weren’t seeing other people on a serious level. Plus they could just
tell there was something between us. […] So we had a long talk. A lot
was said, but luckily they didn’t get angry. <b>They finally said we could live the way we wanted if it was that important to us. It took time, but they have come to accept us.</b> I think the fact that they’re going to become grandparents helped them to accept us being together as a couple. <b>We’re
expecting our first child, a daughter, and I couldn’t be happier with
my life. Having a child was a big decision for us, but I know we’ll be
great parents.</b>”</a></li>
<li>A brother: <a data-mce-href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2011/10/lifelong-couple-denied-right-to-marry.html" href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2011/10/lifelong-couple-denied-right-to-marry.html" target="_blank">“<b>The
way I ultimately decided to be with her was when a girl told me about
her twin, Jesse, who had committed suicide when their relationship was
discovered and they were forced to separate. I realized how similar she
sounded and knew one thing for certain. Nothing should stop true love.</b> People
are born into families not of their own will, and just because someone
was born with them shouldn’t mean they can’t love each other. […] I want
[other people] to open their eyes and mind. […] I have asked people
what’s wrong with our relationship, but all they say is that it’s wrong
or disgusting without giving any reasons. <b>Something they seem to forget is that stopping true love is also morally wrong.</b> I
believe they’re the kind of people that people in the future will look
back on the same way they look at people who were against interracial
marriage.”</a></li>
<li>A sister: <a data-mce-href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2014/05/another-couple-denied-their-freedom-to.html" href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2014/05/another-couple-denied-their-freedom-to.html" target="_blank">"My
parents didn’t want another child and they were going to have an
abortion, but afraid of my grandparents, they had me and gave me to my
uncle and aunt. […] <b>I was a naive 16-year-old [when I met and fell in love with my brother]. My [adoptive] parents caught on pretty quickly.</b> It was a major disaster. […] <b>They said I proved I wasn’t their daughter.</b> It
felt like my entire life had ended. [My brother and I] had been talking
about moving to England before and it only seemed like the logical
decision at the time. <b>My brother said my real family missed me so much and they’d love to have me, so I packed my bags and I left.</b> […] Apart from the time we spent together and away from [my real family], our life was awful. <b>We
couldn’t sit next to each other and we weren’t allowed to go places
alone. Everything we did prompted a remark about how disgusting we were.</b> I think his parents thought I was ruining his life. […] I came back to America. <b>It
was the worst flight of my entire life. I was being separated from the
one person I loved most in the entire world. It was terrible. I think I
cried the entire eleven hours. […] I don’t understand why anyone has to
give someone such a tough time for loving someone.</b> I think it
was hard on [my brother], but he promised me that we’d move out one day.
But there was constant bickering, constant fighting in the family. <b>I think for me the worst of it was when my dad told me that they should have had an abortion.</b> I’d hit rock bottom. <b>I
was forced into therapy. It was suppose to help me with not having
feelings for him anymore… […] I just want to go on a date, to get
engaged, to have the children that we named two years ago.</b>”</a></li>
<li>A sister: <a data-mce-href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2012/10/a-lifelong-love-denied-marriage-equality.html" href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2012/10/a-lifelong-love-denied-marriage-equality.html" target="_blank">“<b>We all love for the same reason: our hearts and souls tell us that the person we are with is the right one for us.</b> Follow
your heart, listen to your soul. When you know your heart, mind and
soul speak as one, it’s right. Love never judges anyone, so don’t judge
until you fully understand. We may be related, but look past that, see
us for who we are. He’s my brother, yet he’s also my bear. He’s a
Grizzly in his fight to give disabled people the right to lead as normal
a life as you and me, yet my Teddy Bear when he’s in my arms. <b>Don’t discriminate [against] us, don’t judge us. We have a right to live and love, just like everybody else does.</b>”</a></li>
<li>A sister: <a data-mce-href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2013/08/australian-couple-denied-their-freedom.html" href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2013/08/australian-couple-denied-their-freedom.html" target="_blank">“He
is my brother, best friend, partner, lover and the only person on the
planet that can push me to the point that I want to strangle him while I
am curled up on his chest. <b>I can’t imagine being without him and he has said […] to me that we would run away if we had to.</b> […]
I am his rock and he is mine. […] The disadvantages are huge, such as
the inability to behave like a normal couple around family and friends,
and not being able to tell people how happy you are. The family are
constantly telling us that we should find ourselves someone special […].
[…] On the flip side I think that the advantage is the level of trust. <b>We
know each other better than we know ourselves sometimes. He has my back
and I have his. We protect each other from the outside world.</b> Our bedroom is our bubble. No one can hurt us in here.”</a></li>
<li>A brother: <a data-mce-href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2011/12/canada-still-denies-marriage-equality.html" href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2011/12/canada-still-denies-marriage-equality.html" target="_blank">“<b>We understand your concern, we respect your beliefs. But this is our life. You can’t separate us simply because you want to.</b> We
will continue to live the way we choose. We are not trying to
“disrespect” you or anyone who’s had a bad experience with incest
related abuse or anything of the sort. But we feel like there is nothing
wrong with what we’re doing. <b>We’re just as normal as any other couple and we know that many who have actually taken time to meet us will agree. </b>[…] [Getting married] would be a dream. <b>We’ve experienced physical and mental abuse due to our relationship, even in the workplace.</b> Also
the fact that we cannot have the marital benefits that many couples do
have, even unrelated gay couples here in Canada. It’s very difficult.
But so far we’d just like the ability to be together and feel safe doing
so.”</a></li>
<li>A sister: <a data-mce-href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2012/10/another-marriage-denied-equality-under.html" href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2012/10/another-marriage-denied-equality-under.html" target="_blank">“I’d
like to ask them to please try and understand us and get to know us
before they pass any judgment on us. We hurt no one and keep to
ourselves. Brothers and sisters can and do fall deeply in love with each
other. <b>We’re only human and we lead normal decent lives; we’re
productive members of society and just like anyone else, just trying to
get by. And I’m hardly a victim. I do what I do out of love.</b>”</a></li>
<li>A brother: <a data-mce-href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2013/12/a-loving-couple-denied-their-freedom-to.html" href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2013/12/a-loving-couple-denied-their-freedom-to.html" target="_blank">“I
would definitely say it’s a natural thing. It wasn’t until early teen
years we really became aware it’s taboo, but for me it just always felt
right. <b>You hear everyone talking about finding the “one”, I can’t help it that I did and she just happens to be one [of] my sisters.</b> I
still find it strange that so many have the incest fantasy/fetish. We
fantasize about being a “normal” couple. I am aware that the nature of
our relationship does make it kinky to most, though I don’t see it that
way. […] <b>We cuddle, we are very affectionate, and I think we
make our friends sick with the amount of love we have - these friends
only know us as a couple.</b>”</a></li>
<li>A brother: <a data-mce-href="http://www.teenhealthfx.com/answers/relationships/questionable+relationships/25263" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/brother-and-sister-lovers.html" target="_blank">"[My sister and I are] lovers. We’ve been making love together for over two years now, and as far as either of us is concerned, we’re a couple, like anyone else. Obviously, we keep this secret between us publicly. My sister moved in with me because she was having problems at home, and our parents support this because since she left home, her grades are up, and she’s no longer depressed. The relationship is absolutely consensual, and always has been. […] I’m planning to have a vasectomy soon also, since we don’t want children. [S]ince it’s always a secret thing, I’ve never spoken to another couple in the same situation […].”</a></li>
<li>A sister: <a data-mce-href="http://www.pirate4x4.com/forum/general-chit-chat/733033-i-had-sex-my-brother-but-i-dont-feel-guilty.html" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/i-had-sex-with-my-brother-but-i-dont.html" target="_blank">”[…] Daniel’s wedding day didn’t upset me at all. It was his 30th birthday six months later which really got to me, as he stood there with his wife Alison while they greeted the guests. I can honestly say that that was the only time when I felt real envy and wished desperately that it was me standing beside him, arms round each other as we showed the world how much we loved each other. […] By the time he met Alison he was working and I was a student. […] [It] came as a shock when he told me he wanted to marry her. However, I was more shocked when he said: ‘You only have to say and I won’t marry her, but then I want us to stay together and not see anyone else. We could be the old boring brother and sister who never got married, but ended up sharing a house because no one else would have them! I know this is meant to be wrong but I’ve never felt anything so right.’ After hours of discussion we agreed that it was time to stop the sexual side of our relationship […]. […] [It] pain[s] me that what appears so lovely and natural to me would be regarded as abhorrent by most people.”</a></li>
<li>A brother: <a data-mce-href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2014/08/a-treasured-love-denied-marriage.html" href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2014/08/a-treasured-love-denied-marriage.html" target="_blank">"<b>We
felt nothing but love and passion for each other. [...] There was no
pressure. That was new to me. For once in my life I was at the most
comfortable I'd ever been [...].</b> [...] I have had
relationships in the past that have felt like one person leads another.
It always felt like there was a power dynamic, either from my part of
theirs, but with my half-sister, nothing has ever felt so mutual and
natural. There was no feeling like it. It's so hard to describe in so
many words. [...] <b>Having to hide away has just been very exhausting and anxiety producing.</b> We
know we haven't done anything wrong to anybody; we haven't harmed
anybody either, yet we feel like were criminals on the run just waiting
to be caught. [...] <b>At times there's been a lot of heartache and
tears, [...] yet even with all that in mind, it's not something I'd
trade for anything in the world and I'll happily fight whatever comes
our way, even a jail sentence if I have to, just to be with her, because
I couldn't ever be happy being without her.</b> [...] I had a
friend [...] [who] was in a long-term relationship. [...] He found out
his girlfriend of eight years was actually his full-blood sister. [...]
When she looked into it, that's what they found out. Everyone on both
sides was against it, wouldn't hear a thing about it. <b>To please
people they broke up but lived a good few months in nothing but the
worst possible agony I could imagine. [...] He used to tell me it felt
like an invisible rope pulling him towards her.</b> Eventually they both caved in and couldn't bear to be without each other ever again. For most it was weird. <b>For
me, it was the sweetest thing I'd ever seen. It actually made me tear
up. They live abroad now and because they have different last names,
they managed to get married; credit to them.</b>"</a></li>
<li>A sister: <a data-mce-href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2014/08/a-treasured-love-from-her-perspective.html" href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2014/08/a-treasured-love-from-her-perspective.html" target="_blank">"We
were so happy to finally talk and when we met in person, the second we
looked at each other it was very emotional and overwhelming. We hugged
for what seemed ages, like we never wanted to let go. There was an
instant connection. <b>I felt closer to him than I’d ever been with anyone. [...] I’d never felt so loved and cherished up until that moment.</b> We could tell how much we meant to each other. Our eyes lit up, our endless smiles said it all. [...] </a><a data-mce-href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2014/08/a-treasured-love-from-her-perspective.html" href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2014/08/a-treasured-love-from-her-perspective.html" target="_blank">It’s the most happy, comfortable, special feeling I’ve ever felt. He feels the same way. <b>We
have so much love and respect for each other. We cherish every moment
we spend together. I’ve never felt so loved and this close to someone in
all my life.</b> He means the world to me and I mean the world to
him. The way we look into each other’s eyes, how they sparkle for one
another shows just how deeply in love we are. When he holds me, I never
want to leave his arms. <b>Even when we’re apart it feels like
we’re connected invisibly somehow. I know not many people have or will
witness love like ours. I’m thankful to experience this.</b> [...] We
see each other as siblings, soul mates, and partners. We are fully
committed to each other. I couldn’t see myself with anyone else and he
says the same too. [...] We intend to stay together no matter what. We are in love and our bond is unbreakable. <b>It
might not always be easy and we can’t predict what will happen in the
future, but together we are strong. We will fight for our right to live
as we should be entitled to, as any other happy couple, no matter what
it takes.</b> </a><a data-mce-href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2014/08/a-treasured-love-from-her-perspective.html" href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2014/08/a-treasured-love-from-her-perspective.html" target="_blank">[...]
I’d love nothing more than to have the freedom to live this way
together. We’re not happy when we’re apart; it hurts a lot and I always
long to be in his arms."</a></li>
</ul>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>- FORCING THEM APART</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
You
may wish that they would just find other people. There are plenty of
non-blood-related fish in the sea. If they did that, it would certainly
make things easier for <i>you</i>, wouldn’t it? You may even be able to convince yourself that it would somehow be easier for them, too. Well, why <i>should</i> they find other people?</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>Do you have someone you love? If so, why don’t <i>you</i> find someone else? It’s easy to see that it’s not so easy.</b> If
you knew a bisexual man who was dating another man, would you tell him
that, because he has “more acceptable options,” that he must date a
woman? The “homosexuality isn’t a choice” argument is strawmaning: it
serves as a nice talking point, but that’s not ultimately why society
now feels that homophobia is wrong. <b>We’ve come to understand
that love doesn’t always fit the conventions proscribed by society; that
it is morally wrong to police people’s sex lives and love lives; that
society is better off when we nurture people’s natural love.</b> A
bisexual person may be capable of loving someone of the opposite sex,
but that doesn’t mean they will. No-one chooses who they fall in love
with. <b>It is no different for siblings in love.</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>Besides, have you stopped to consider the consequences of forcing them to break up?</b> People think only of the consequences of letting siblings stay together, but not of destroying their relationship.<b> Consider:
how will breaking them up, causing them misery and pain, shaming them,
and policing them make their relationship “healthy?”</b> Even if you think it’s “unhealthy” now, their relationship is guaranteed to be much worse after that kind of trauma. <b>They’ll
remember what they had, they’ll remember the pain of its loss, they’ll
remember the judgment, they’ll remember the shame, and they will
probably know that they still love each other. What kind of family
dinners do you expect with <i>that</i> kind of angst floating around?</b> They may in fact choose to never see each other again, because it would be too painful.</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>What if they shun your judgment and shaming?</b> Many
consanguinamorous couples, when facing judgment and intervention by
friends and family, break off all ties with them for the sake of
preserving their own relationship with each other. <b>If you really do care about them, and also want to be part of their lives, learn to at least tolerate their love.</b> Better
that you have a presence in their lives. Don’t force them to choose
between family and friends, and the love of their lives.</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>- RELATIONSHIP INSTABILITY</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>Now,
there is one legitimate concern regarding consanguinamory: won’t
introducing sex and romance destabilize the family dynamic?</b> What if it ultimately doesn’t work out? Won’t that make it difficult to go back to being just family for them? <b>The short answer: not necessarily.</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
Now
for the long answer. First of all, yes, it might, but many people
pursue love at the risk of existing relationships, and we don’t begrudge
them their pursuit of happiness, even if risky. <b>No truly good things in life are gained without risk.</b> As
a culture, we even romanticize such risky pursuits of love. I would
argue that, aside from the threat of social stigma breaking them apart,
they are actually less likely to break up than other couples. Assuming
they were raised together, they’ve already had decades to get to know
each other, most of it probably non-sexually. <b>Imagine if a man
and woman lived together for sixteen or more years, without any sex at
all, before they decided to be romantically involved. We would all
consider that comically conservative, and yet that is the kind of
experience these siblings have had.</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>Even when romances do end explosively, they can still go back to normal, given time and space.</b> There
are couples that have broken up very dramatically, but after having a
couple years to themselves are able to go back to being friends. <b>Even
if these siblings do ultimately break up, given all of their prior
experience as siblings, the common familial relationships, etc., they
should be much more likely to eventually get back to being friendly than
non-related couples.</b> They would have more motivation to.</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>Remember too, not all romances end explosively.</b> Some
marriages end after over a decade, on amicable terms. If a relationship
ends, the destructiveness of its end is related directly to the
destructiveness of the relationship itself. <b>What destroys a
relationship in such a way? Lying, abuse, lack of communication,
emotional unavailability, bad conflict resolution skills, lack of
respect, lack of appreciation, etc.</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
Since you know the couple, you should have some idea whether they have problems with any of these things in their lives. <b>If
you are their parent, then you are in a unique position to ensure that
they both treat each other with respect, empathy, and honesty.</b> You have an interest in their relationship being healthy in the long term, and you also have the power to help that happen.</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>Don’t assume that their relationship as siblings and their relationship as lovers are mutually exclusive</b>. It’s a common, false assumption that they must be, but the personal testimony of people in such relationships refutes it. <b>I doubt they fell in love because they were <i>bad</i> siblings, but more likely it grew out of an especially close sibling relationship.</b> We
all acknowledge that people can serve multiple roles in a relationship,
being both best friends and lovers. Well, so it is that they are best
friends, lovers, and siblings. <b>Each one of those relationships strengthens the others: their relationship becomes greater than the sum of its parts.</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
Even
if familial and romantic love were mutually exclusive, who are you to
decide which of those options is best for them? So they happened to be
born as siblings. Why must that chain them the rest of their lives?
Maybe they will be better as lovers than as siblings. <b>As consenting adults, they get to decide which kind of relationship makes them happiest.</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>- HEALTH OF THEIR CHILDREN</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>Assuming you’re okay with all of the points I’ve just made, you may still have one objection: what if they have babies?</b> This is one of the last refuges for those who can’t quite justify banning consanguinamory, but still want to. <b>After
all, what about all the stories of monster babies? Well, there are
actually very few of those stories, they are an over-publicized
minority, and that stereotype goes against <a data-mce-href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2010/10/consanguineous-childbearing-and-genes.html" href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2010/10/consanguineous-childbearing-and-genes.html" target="_blank">actual scientific and historical evidence</a>.</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<blockquote>
<a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/84146600291/perhaps-no-opinion-upon-subjects-of-a-medical" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-deformity-stereotype-is-old-one.html" target="_blank">"Perhaps no opinion, upon subjects of a medical character, is more widely diffused among the public, or more tenaciously held, than that the results of the marriage of blood relations are almost uniformly unfortunate. This opinion has been so long held and so often reiterated, that by sheer force of these circumstances alone it has come to be regarded as an unquestioned and unquestionable fact."</a></blockquote>
</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
These
siblings may already have a child. They may be pregnant. They may be
planning on having a child in the future. You might have even found out
about it because a pregnancy or genetic test of a child brought it to
light. <b>Once again, I must ask you to calm down, and listen
carefully to what I’m about to say. The feelings you have are coming
from a lot of cultural baggage and stereotyping, <i>again</i>.</b> I
won’t deny that the risks are higher than for the general population,
but they’re not nearly as bad as you hear, and slightly elevated risks
are never any reason to curtail a woman’s basic rights.</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
One hears an ingrained, “But it’s unnatural!” argument quite a bit. “Inbreeding” is not “unnatural,” as many would claim. <b><a data-mce-href="http://www.slate.com/content/slate/blogs/humannature/2008/04/16/incest_in_nature.html" href="http://www.slate.com/content/slate/blogs/humannature/2008/04/16/incest_in_nature.html" target="_blank">Many species engage in consanguineous mating in some form or another</a>, and <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/why-marrying-your-cousin-may-pay-off.html">it can have both positive and negative effects</a>, <a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/86554741829/why-marrying-your-cousin-may-pay-off" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/05/the-balance-between-inbreeding-and.html" target="_blank">depending on the circumstances</a>.</b> Sometimes, <a data-mce-href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSQwntaYyDg#t=166" href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dSQwntaYyDg#t=166" target="_blank">species even evolve a resistance to problems from “inbreeding.”</a> <b>In nature, as in society, things are always <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/02/inbreeding-helps-african-fish.html">more complicated</a> than a blanket judgment can capture.</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<blockquote>
<a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/83743338762/if-natural-is-good-what-use-does-it-serve-as" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/83743338762/if-natural-is-good-what-use-does-it-serve-as" target="_blank">"<b>If 'natural' is 'good', what use does it serve as a moral rubric? When
people say 'homosexuality is unnatural', they are saying 'homosexuality
is wrong'.</b> But how does that help the discussion? 'It’s wrong
because it’s unnatural' is the same as saying 'it’s wrong because it’s
wrong'. <b>That doesn’t tell us why it’s wrong: it’s again 'a
description' – a false one in this case, since […] there are 1,500
animal species that engage in homosexual behaviour.</b> The
assertion becomes a tautology. […] The entire point is to get rid of
linking so tightly 'moral' and 'natural': whether something does or does
not occur in nature doesn’t aid our deciding whether that act is moral.</a><b><a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/83743338762/if-natural-is-good-what-use-does-it-serve-as" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/83743338762/if-natural-is-good-what-use-does-it-serve-as" target="_blank"> After
all, wearing glasses, building hospitals and using crutches don’t occur
in nature – are these to be considered 'wrong' based on that category?</a></b><a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/83743338762/if-natural-is-good-what-use-does-it-serve-as" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/83743338762/if-natural-is-good-what-use-does-it-serve-as" target="_blank">"</a></blockquote>
</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
If
we should force people to only have babies with people that are
distantly related from them, for eugenic reasons, then why stop at
prohibiting consanguinamory? <b>Why not forbid <i>all</i> sex between people of the <i>same race</i>?</b> Genetic similarity within a population can still be great enough that genetic diseases are passed on – <a data-mce-href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taysachs#Society_and_culture" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taysachs#Society_and_culture" target="_blank">just look at Tay-Sachs</a>. <b>Of course the idea is ridiculous, but it just follows the logic of policing women’s uteri to minimize genetic disease.</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<blockquote>
<a data-mce-href="http://www.thestar.com.my/story.aspx/?file=%2f2008%2f5%2f5%2flifefocus%2f20900821&sec=lifefocus" href="http://www.thestar.com.my/story.aspx/?file=%2f2008%2f5%2f5%2flifefocus%2f20900821&sec=lifefocus" target="_blank">“[…] <b>[S]cientists
have rejected the explanation that [the] incest taboo is a social
mechanism that reduces the risk of congenital birth defects.</b> One
of the reasons is, findings have concluded that recessive or
defect-carrying genes in a population may increase or decrease in
instances of inbreeding. The frequency of birth defects depends on the
availability and effectiveness of healthcare in a population.<b> A
recent genetic report also stated that children of unrelated parents
have a 3% to 4% risk of having serious birth defects, while the
offspring of first cousins have only a slightly higher risk of about 4%
to 7%.</b>”</a></blockquote>
</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b><a data-mce-href="http://www.larasig.com/node/2020" href="http://www.larasig.com/node/2020" target="_blank">We can extrapolate from this that for siblings, it is at least 7%, and probably no higher than 11%.</a> This is equivalent to <a data-mce-href="http://www.healthline.com/health/pregnancy/risk-factors" href="http://www.parenting.com/article/pregnancy-at-20-30-40" target="_blank">the risk of birth defects for women in their 40s, which ranges from 5% to 11%</a>.</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
I have also written
about how <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-key-to-healthy-children-for.html">new scientific discoveries</a> are illuminating why, over many
generations, having children with blood-relatives can have an effect on a
population. <b>It’s not what most people think, <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/more-help-for-ensuring-healthy-babies.html">it’s not as threatening as most people think</a>, and more importantly, <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/new-drug-helps-huntingtons-disease.html">we may soon be able to fix it</a>.</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
Whether considering the genome, or the epigenome, a single generation can be completely inconsequential. All of the risks are <i>population-wide</i> risks:
the chances that a random sibling couple would have a child with
defects are that high, but these two siblings are not a random couple. <b>They are a specific couple, with individual genomes.</b> Their
family history of disease is specific to their family. Those things
tell you much more about their chances than some randomized study. <b>They may, in fact, have a <i>lower</i> probability of defects than the general population.</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<blockquote>
<a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/84150881135/if-the-data-from-my-meta-study-are-censored" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/alan-bittles-on-his-own-meta-study.html" target="_blank">"</a><b><a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/84150881135/if-the-data-from-my-meta-study-are-censored" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/alan-bittles-on-his-own-meta-study.html" target="_blank">[…][If] the data [from my meta-study] are censored to exclude physical and mental abnormalities among the male and female parents, and major disparities with respect to young and advanced maternal age, few differences remain in the overall health outcomes recorded for [the children of the consanguineous group and the children of the control group].</a></b><a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/84150881135/if-the-data-from-my-meta-study-are-censored" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/alan-bittles-on-his-own-meta-study.html" target="_blank">"</a></blockquote>
</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>Either
way, we do not, as a society, agree with eugenics, and for good reason.
We do not espouse the views of racists who spent decades sterilizing
the poor and black in the U.S.</b> They’ll have to care for the
child, it is her body, it is their risk to take. It doesn’t matter
whether you approve of it on a “massive scale” (which wouldn’t happen
without society forcing people), all that matters is whether it would be
okay for <i>this specific couple</i>.</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
You’re probably also worried about how the child will deal with the taboo nature of its parents’ relationship. <b>Isn’t
it better that a child grow up in a normal family? This is the kind of
reasoning that punishes all sexual minorities for the bigotry of the
majority.</b> Not only do they have to deal with the derision of the masses, but now they have to give up their own children <i>because</i> of that derision?<b> No
enlightened person in this day and age would argue that we should take
the children of same-sex couples away from them and have them raised in
“normal” families.</b> It would be barbarous, and yet there are homophobic reactionaries who argue against same-sex adoption with a similar argument.</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>We should never let the bigotry of others police our families</b>.
A child can learn to deal with ostracism, as long as they have a good
support network at home, but no child can learn to live without
experiencing love. <b>Isn’t it better that this child grows up in an “abnormal” household that loves them dearly, than a “normal” one that doesn’t?</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>- CONCLUSION</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<a data-mce-href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2013/02/ten-myths-about-sibling-consanguinamory.html" href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2013/02/ten-myths-about-sibling-consanguinamory.html" target="_blank">Here are refutations</a> of
many arguments people make against sibling consanguinamory. It’s a good
addition to what I have just said. This quote from the article is
especially apropos:</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<blockquote>
“There are siblings who are
together right now, providing each other love, comfort, support, or
their first sexual experience in a safe and reassuring environment. <b>The
biggest problem with sibling consanguinamory seems to be the prejudice
and sex-negative attitudes of others. In most cases, trying to force
consanguinamorous siblings apart only makes things worse.</b> It
can be a mutually beneficial way of bonding, expressing their love for
each other, learning, and discovering their sexuality; it may even be a
beautiful, lifelong romance. <b>Let’s not let ignorance cause needless concern or repression.</b>”</blockquote>
</div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>Don’t be ashamed of changing your mind.</b> <a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/75610581329/weve-had-considerable-internet-discussion-over" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/75610581329/weve-had-considerable-internet-discussion-over" target="_blank">Other people have had to walk the same intellectual and emotional journey.</a> Don’t
be ashamed that you were once wrong. Better to grow as a person than
cling to terrible beliefs out of a misplaced sense of embarrassment and
ego. <a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/75201778148/im-not-kidding" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/75201778148/im-not-kidding" target="_blank">Let yourself grow</a>,
for the sake of your child/sibling/friend. You may think you have
nothing left to learn, but everyone can learn something, and everyone
can teach something. <b>This is their moment to teach you.</b></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<br /></div>
<div style="text-align: left;">
<b>Here are some extra resources:</b></div>
<ul style="text-align: left;">
<li><a data-mce-href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/p/family-and-friends.html" href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/p/family-and-friends.html" target="_blank">Advice from Full Marriage Equality</a>, to family and friends of the consanguinamorous.</li>
<li><a data-mce-href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/p/consensual-incest-faq.html" href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/p/consensual-incest-faq.html" target="_blank">Full Marriage Equality’s answers</a> to frequently asked questions.</li>
<li><a data-mce-href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/p/need-help.html" href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/p/need-help.html" target="_blank">Advice from Full Marriage Equality</a>, to consanguinamorous couples themselves.</li>
<li><a data-mce-href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/tagged/consanguinamory" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/search/label/consanguinamory" target="_blank">From my blog The Final Manifesto, all posts tagged “consanguinamory.”</a></li>
<li>My blog, The Final Manifesto (<a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Blogspot</a>) (<a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/" target="_blank">Tumblr</a>)</li>
<li>Full Marriage Equality (<a data-mce-href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/" href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/" target="_blank">Blogspot</a>) (<a data-mce-href="http://fullmarriageequality.tumblr.com/" href="http://fullmarriageequality.tumblr.com/" target="_blank">Tumblr</a>)</li>
</ul>
<span style="font-size: xx-small;"><span style="color: white;">my siblings are having sex with each other, my brother and sister are having sex with each other, my brothers are having sex with each other, my sisters are having sex with each other, my children are having sex with each other, my son and daughter are having sex with each other, my sons are having sex with each other, my daughters are having sex with each other, my siblings are committing incest, my brothers are committing incest, my sisters are committing incest, my brother and sister are committing incest, my children are committing incest, my son and daughter are committing incest, my sons are committing incest, my daughters are committing incest, my friends are committing incest, discovered incest, found incest, my friend has sex with her brother, my friend has sex with his sister, i am in love with my brother, i am in love with my sister, my friend is in love with her brother, my friend is in love with his sister, my son is in love with his sister, my daughter is in love with her brother, my son and daughter are in love, my children are in love, my son is in love with my daughter, my daughter is in love with my son</span></span><br />
<ul style="text-align: left;">
</ul>
Unknownnoreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-87326464768478083192015-12-18T14:26:00.003-05:002015-12-18T14:29:57.679-05:00Unfamiliarity leads to disgust, and disgust leads to hate<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><b>Westermarck suggested that humans have an inclination to prevent other people from behaving in ways they would not themselves behave.</b> On this view, left-handers were in the past forced to adopt the habits of right-handers because the right-handers found left-handers disturbing. In the same way, those who were known to have had sexual intercourse with close kin were discriminated against. <b>People who had grown up with kin of the opposite sex were generally not attracted to those individuals and disapproved when they discovered others who were.</b> […] Once in place, the desire for conformity, on the one hand, and the reluctance to inbreed, on the other, would have combined to generate social disapproval of inbreeding.</i></blockquote>
- Patrick Bateson, <i>Inbreeding, Incest, and the Incest Taboo</i><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>Why do we condemn others for having sex with </i>their<i>
relatives? What has this to do with our not being interested in having
sex with our relatives? […] We condemn them because by arousing our
aversion their behavior causes us pain.</i></blockquote>
- Arthur P. Wolf, <i>Inbreeding, Incest, and the Incest Taboo</i>Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-41146852996694799832015-12-18T14:11:00.001-05:002015-12-18T14:12:55.312-05:00"Genetic testing breathes new life into Israel's Samaritans"<table cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0" class="tr-caption-container" style="margin-left: 0px; margin-right: auto; text-align: left;"><tbody>
<tr><td style="text-align: center;"><a href="http://www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowImage.ashx?ID=175891&w=758&h=530" imageanchor="1" style="margin-left: auto; margin-right: auto;"><img border="0" src="http://www.jpost.com/HttpHandlers/ShowImage.ashx?ID=175891&w=758&h=530" height="223" width="320" /></a></td></tr>
<tr><td class="tr-caption" style="text-align: center;"><i>Samaritans celebrating Sukkot</i><u><br /></u></td></tr>
</tbody></table>
All of these weird eugenic arguments people make about consanguinamory, about people having "too many kids," are not only creepy, but they're based on bad assumptions. When people are given easy access to good information on how to manage their families, they usually use it. <a href="http://articles.latimes.com/2012/dec/09/world/la-fg-israel-gene-testing-20121209">The results can be amazing</a>.<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<div class="area" id="area-article-first-block">
<div class="mod-latarticlesarticletext mod-articletext" id="mod-a-body-first-para" style="margin-right: 0px;">
<i>MT.
GERIZIM, West Bank — When Ben Yehuda Altif got engaged to his first
cousin Mazal, there was no problem winning the blessing of their
families or the Samaritan high priest, who leads their ancient Israelite
sect. Marriage between cousins is common in the religious community. But
there was still an obstacle. <b>Like many Samaritan couples today, the
pair had to pass a premarital genetic screening to predict the
likelihood of having healthy children. Without the green light from
doctors, the marriage would be off. "Doctors said OK, and now we
have a healthy, handsome boy," said Altif, 33, reaching for his wife's
cellphone to show off pictures of their son.</b></i><b> </b></div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<div class="area" id="area-article-first-block">
<div class="mod-latarticlesarticletext mod-articletext" id="mod-a-body-first-para" style="margin-right: 0px;">
<i>Samaritans, who trace
their roots back about 2,700 years, are best known for clinging to
strict biblical traditions that have largely disappeared, including
animal sacrifice, isolation of menstruating women and, until recently, a
ban on marrying outsiders. But
after facing near-extinction and being devastated by a high rate of
birth defects because of inbreeding, the community is using modern
science — including genetic testing, in vitro fertilization and abortion
— to preserve their traditional way of life.</i> </div>
</div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<div class="area" id="area-article-first-block">
<div class="mod-latarticlesarticletext mod-articletext" id="mod-a-body-first-para" style="margin-right: 0px;">
<i>"It's changing our
blood," said Aharon Ben-Av Chisda, 86, high priest of the 750-member
Samaritan community, which is split about evenly between the West Bank
village of Kiryat Luza near Nablus and the Israeli city of Holon, south
of Tel Aviv. The white-bearded priest said genetic testing was
breathing new life and optimism into the once-besieged community. He
noted that he and his wife, who is a second cousin, had four children
before genetic testing was available: Three are deaf and one can't walk.
Most other families at Mt. Gerizim tell similar stories of health
problems and handicaps among the older generation, though lately such
problems have begun to disappear.</i></div>
</div>
<div class="mod-latarticlesarticletextwithadcpc mod-latarticlesarticletext mod-articletext" id="mod-a-body-after-first-para">
<i>Samaritans are one of the
world's oldest religious sects. Similar in practice, beliefs and
ancestry to Jews, they follow the Hebrew Torah. But instead of
Jerusalem, they revere a temple their ancestors built on this remote
West Bank hillside.</i> </div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<div class="mod-latarticlesarticletextwithadcpc mod-latarticlesarticletext mod-articletext" id="mod-a-body-after-first-para">
<i>Mentioned several times in the Bible,
Samaritans are also considered one of the most inbred communities in the
world, with 46% marrying first cousins and more than 80% marrying blood
relatives, according to research by Israeli geneticist Batsheva
Bonne-Tamir, who spent most of her career studying the community. The
restrictions against marrying outsiders were less of a problem when
Samaritans numbered more than a million in the 5th century. But because
of persecution and forced conversion to Islam, their numbers had
dwindled to just 146 by 1917. To crawl their way back, Samaritans
began having large families of eight to 10 children, and the frequency
of first-cousin marriages doubled, Bonne-Tamir found. As the
population grew, so did the health problems and genetic defects,
including rare blood diseases, Usher syndrome, deafness, muteness,
blindness and physical handicaps.</i> </div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<div class="mod-latarticlesarticletextwithadcpc mod-latarticlesarticletext mod-articletext" id="mod-a-body-after-first-para">
<i>"It was largely a 20th century phenomenon," said Bonne-Tamir, now retired from Tel Aviv University. Over
the last decade, the community also relaxed its restrictions on
intermarriage, allowing in about 25 women, mostly Jewish Israelis and
arranged matches with brides from Ukraine. Samaritan leaders are
reluctant to discuss their gene pool shrinkage, but they estimate the
rate of birth defects was once 10 times higher than the nationwide
average. By the 1960s, the rate of miscarriage was 10% higher among
Samaritan women, one study found.</i><i> <b>But
since adopting genetic testing, Samaritans say the rate of birth
defects among newborns today is normal, even though most people still
marry inside the community, including to relatives.</b></i></div>
</blockquote>
<div class="mod-latarticlesarticletextwithadcpc mod-latarticlesarticletext mod-articletext" id="mod-a-body-after-second-para">
<blockquote>
<i>"This is
enabling us to build a better generation for the future," said Ishak Al
Samiri, a spokesman for the community at Mt. Gerizim.</i><br />
<i>Like his
father, Al Samiri married a cousin. He has two healthy children, but he
suffers from a blood disorder and his brother is crippled, both believed
to be linked to genetic defects, he said.</i><br />
<i>Samaritans have long
been the focus of genetic research, initially because of their ancient
roots. In the 1960s, Israeli scientists began to study the Holon branch
of the community, both to assist with genetic defects and to trace their
historic lineage.</i> </blockquote>
<blockquote>
<i>Samaritans claim that they are the descendants
of northern Israelite tribes that were conquered by Assyrians.
Subsequent genetic studies suggested that Samaritan men carry the
so-called Cohen gene, linking them to ancient Israelites. For
centuries, Samaritans lived in Nablus, but some moved to Jaffa and later
to Holon. In 1988, the Nablus community relocated to a village near an
Israeli settlement to escape attacks by Palestinians, who viewed them as
Jews. Today Samaritans, who hold Israeli citizenship, pride themselves on staying neutral in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.</i></blockquote>
This can happen if there's a sudden, extreme bottleneck. Moderate levels of consanguineous marriage can have little to no consequence on a population's health stats, as long as the population is large enough and there is still non-consanguineous marriage. If a bottleneck does happen, it can be many generations before all of the deleterious genes from the founder population are eliminated from the gene pool. One of the ways to get around this, as the Samaritans have shown, is to use genetic tests to inform marital and reproductive decisions. If people are worried about children born with disabilities - and I'm assuming they're genuine here, and not just using this as an excuse to attack consanguinamorous people specifically - then a great way to address those concerns is with widespread, cheap access to genetic testing and family planning. As the Samaritans have shown, if you have that, consanguinamory isn't much of a problem.</div>
Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-40360205194874283972015-12-18T13:33:00.001-05:002015-12-18T14:30:44.634-05:00The naturalistic fallacy needs to dieThe "naturalistic fallacy" is commonly used against both biological science, homosexuality, and consanguinamory. It's a fallacy for a reason. <br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>If “natural” is “good”, what use does it serve as a moral rubric? When people say “homosexuality is unnatural”, they are saying “homosexuality is wrong”. But how does that help the discussion? “It’s wrong because it’s unnatural” is the same as saying “it’s wrong because it’s wrong”. That doesn’t tell us why it’s wrong: it’s again “a description” – a false one in this case, since […] there are 1,500 animal species that engage in homosexual behaviour. The assertion becomes a tautology. But just showing that a supposedly unnatural act occurs in nature does not make it moral either! The entire point is to get rid of linking so tightly “moral” and “natural”: whether something does or does not occur in nature doesn’t aid our deciding whether that act is moral.</i><br />
<i><br /></i>
<i>After all, wearing glasses, building hospitals and using crutches don’t occur in nature – are these to be considered “wrong” based on that category? If they’re not, why use the category of “unnatural” or even “natural” at all when discussing morality?</i></blockquote>
- <a href="http://bigthink.com/against-the-new-taboo/lets-get-rid-of-nature">Tauriq Moosa</a>Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-36243034879061308132015-12-18T12:00:00.001-05:002015-12-29T11:31:51.901-05:00"Do you think incest and polygamy will be legalized?" - Part 1<b><a href="http://www.futuretimeline.net/forum/topic/8103-do-you-think-incest-and-polygamy-will-be-legalized/">I came across a poll on the subject of the future of full marriage equality a while back</a>:</b><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>I was watching a TV show recently and surprisingly, three characters (two men and a woman) got together in a sexual AND romantic relationship - as in, it wasn’t just a kink, they were serious about it, they even made their relationship official to their family/friends. And it got me thinking, do you guys think polygamy will ever be legalized? And incest? And should they be, and if not, why? Will our society ever see it as acceptable/normal like with gay relationships?</i></blockquote>
<b>My response:</b><br />
<a name='more'></a><blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>First of all, I’d like to point out that in some ways this debate is moot: <a class="bbc_url" href="http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Status_of_polygamy_worldwide_.png" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">polygamy in some form is already legal in many countries</a>, <a class="bbc_url" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/global-map-of-incest-laws.html" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">sex with a close relative is legal in some, and marriage to your half-sibling is legal in Sweden</a>. <b>Any push for more legal recognition in other countries would just be a continuation of what already exists.</b> </i><br />
<br />
<i>Futurist, on 25 Apr 2014 - 12:31 PM, said:</i><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
I’m honestly unsure about this because there might not be enough demand to legalize either of these two things.</blockquote>
<i><b>Actually, there’s demand for both, because <a class="bbc_url" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/06/how-prevalent-is-polyamory.html" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">there are people</a> in either type of relationship (<a class="bbc_url" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/02/a-happy-triad.html" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">sometimes in both at once</a>), and their relationships are extremely illegal in many places.</b><a class="bbc_url" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/06/the-legality-of-polyamory-by-state.html" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link"> In some states</a>
simply cohabiting with multiple people of the opposite gender counts
as a common-law marriage, and can get all of you sent to jail for up to
10 years.<a class="bbc_url" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/global-map-of-incest-laws.html" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link"> In most Southern states, as well as some states in Australia</a>,
a single sex act with a consenting adult you are related to, regardless
of whether you two grew up together, can get both sent to jail for
life. <b>There is also a growing community of allies, many from the
LGBT+ community, who support relationship and marriage freedom for all
consenting adults, regardless of any qualifiers.</b> </i><br />
<br />
<i><a class="bbc_url" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">My blog</a></i><br />
<a href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/"><i>My friend’</i></a><i><a href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/">s blog</a></i><br />
<br />
<i><b>There are also <a class="bbc_url" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/78015726716/leader-of-new-zealand-new-act-party-supports" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">other people</a> publicly <a class="bbc_url" href="http://bigthink.com/against-the-new-taboo/an-example-of-consensual-incest" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">speaking out</a> against discrimination and legal abuse. <a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.thewrap.com/movies/column-post/toronto-film-fest-nick-cassevetes-incest-who-gives-damn-love-who-you-want-55581" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">Some</a> are even trying to change culture through <a class="bbc_url" href="http://dianerinellaauthor.com/unjust-crime/" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">positive media representations</a>. </b></i><br />
<br />
<i><b><span id="goog_67934405"></span><a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/04/documentary-brothers-and-sisters-in-love.html">They’re</a><span id="goog_67934406"></span><span class="bbc_url"> </span><a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.buzzwok.com/three-polyamorous-gay-women-are-expecting-their-first-child-together/" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">real</a><span class="bbc_url"> </span><a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/02/an-atlanta-poly-family-in-news.html">people</a>, and under the current legal regime and set of taboos <a class="bbc_url" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/06/put-end-to-this-horror-story.html" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">they suffer</a>, sometimes <a class="bbc_url" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/would-be-draftee-tony-washingtons-nfl.html" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">brutally</a>.</b> Just because you don’t personally know of them doesn’t mean they aren’t there. In fact, you may know some and just <a class="bbc_url" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/discovering-consanguinamory-in-family.html" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">don’t know</a> you know them. Consanguineous couples especially, are deep, deep in the closet.</i><br />
<br />
<i>I’d also like to point out that according <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/05/an-accidental-study.html">to surveys</a> (and some testimony from people I know), <a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.ethicaltreatment.org/research.htm" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">as much as 10%</a> (possibly more) of the population in the US has at least sexually experimented with a sibling (non-coercively, of course). <b>Anyone who advocates for “incest” laws is advocating for throwing as much as a tenth of the entire population into jail.</b></i><br />
<br />
<i>Death, on 25 Apr 2014 - 8:31 PM, said:</i><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
If we could overcome the genetic problems then would incest be
accepted? Not advocating for it definitely, because incidence of birth
defect is very high (somewhere above 50% I forget and we are talking
serious die before you’re 5 years old birth defects and major
retardation).</blockquote>
<i>First of all, genetic testing and family planning <a class="bbc_url" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/12/genetic-testing-breathes-new-life-into.html" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">does allow</a> people to overcome “the genetic problems”. Sometimes <a class="bbc_url" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/nomadic-tribe-in-gorontalo-forest.html" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">there are no genetic problems</a>. <b>Your
statistic is also incredibly high, and smacks of stereotypes and not
science. Of all the reasonably well done studies I’ve seen, the most
pessimistic estimate for genetic problems for 1st degree relatives is
30%. <a class="bbc_url" href="http://www.larasig.com/node/2020" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">The more realistic estimate I’ve seen</a> is around 11%, [...] <a href="http://www.parenting.com/article/pregnancy-at-20-30-40">lower than for some middle aged women</a>.</b> (That’s for a single generation, of course.)</i><br />
<br />
<i>Those are population statistics anyway. Individual couples may be
more or less likely to have problems, just like the general population.
Also, there are people in the general population who are not closely
related, but both possess terrible genetic diseases which they can pass
on to their children, but we don’t forbid them from getting married or
throw them in jail for having sex. Scientists who know anything about
this subject <a class="bbc_url" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-evolution-of-inbreeding-avoidance.html" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">think the eugenic argument is bunk</a>.
(I personally find eugenic reasoning to be anti-democratic. It also
allows a return to eugenics based on things like race and class). <b>For one, even for the best studies, everyone is aware that their samples are so small and so biased that <a class="bbc_url" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/alan-bittles-on-his-own-meta-study.html" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">they can’t really even conduct a statistically reliable study</a> beyond 1st cousins, since in most places closer unions are illegal.</b> </i><br />
<br />
<i>“Major retardation” is not the most common defect anyway. The usual
problems are related to the immune system or to basic organ function,
like the heart. <b>Most of these children are totally fine, and the
ones that aren’t are still mentally normal. Who is anyone to determine
that their lives have no value to themselves or society, and should be
prevented at all costs, even at the cost of undermining human rights?</b> Besides, not all consanguineous relationships are <a class="bbc_url" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/gay-porns-most-shocking-taboo.html" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">even heterosexual</a>.</i><br />
<br />
<i>Alric, on 25 Apr 2014 - 7:23 PM, said:</i><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
They are stupid laws. You should be able to do whatever you want with
other consenting adults. Marriage is just a contract as well, if you
want to marry out of love in a straight or gay relationship, or marry
for money, or to get citizenship or because you made a bet, all those
should be consider valid reasons. The government shouldn’t be deciding
who should or shouldn’t get married, they should only be recognizing all
marriages people ask them to recognize.</blockquote>
<i>Amen! I’d also like to point out that many people don’t feel disgust
anymore towards the idea of homosexuality is because it’s seen
frequently in public. <b>Many people still do feel disgust at the
idea, even when they support same-sex marriage, and many more felt
disgust at the thought in the past. <a class="bbc_url" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/12/unfamiliarity-leads-to-disgust-and.html" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">It’s a known mechanism</a>, in which seeing another person do something you wouldn’t do makes you imagine yourself doing it. <a class="bbc_url" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/12/unfamiliarity-leads-to-disgust-and.html" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">The revulsion felt</a> at that mental imagery causes people to lash out at the people who inspired the thoughts.</b> It’s the same social psychological mechanism, though perhaps for consanguineous sex the revulsion is stronger for some people.</i><br />
<br />
<i>“Naturalness” also <a class="bbc_url" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/12/the-naturalistic-fallacy-needs-to-die.html" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">isn’t a good rubric</a>
for these things. While most animals avoid sex with close relatives in
nature, not all do. While most animals have sex with an animal of the
opposite sex, not all do. Polygyny, polyandry, and polygynandry all
occur in nature. (Polygyny is much more common than monogamy in nature.
Should monogamous marriage be illegal?) <b>Which is natural, the
majority, or the minority, given that both occur in nature? Besides,
neither homophobia, nor the “incest” taboo, occur in nature outside of
human culture. Same-sex and consanguineous sex acts are more “natural”
by many standards, than the taboos and laws against them.</b> </i><br />
<br />
<i><a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/83252190236/sexual-morality-is-too-important-to-the-happiness" target="_blank">“Sexual
morality is too important to the happiness and the well-being of us all
to be determined by superstition, politics, economics, and religious
taboos."</a></i><br />
<br />
<i>ayubelwhishi, on 25 Apr 2014 - 06:29 AM, said:</i><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
Its still a a taboo for me because you can get better women than your
sibling or you mother. I just see incest as a pathetic way to love.
Like how does the wheel of your love life land on your sister? Don’t
reply on this because I’m too tired to want to get in an argument over
it.<br />
<br />
On polygamy, i believe it should be legalized if the woman
consent with it. But i do not know how a woman would like to love a man
who love other woman. It seems like a way to cheat without making her
mad. </blockquote>
<i>A lot of assumptions there. <b>What if <a class="bbc_url" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/a-beautiful-story-of-mother-and-son.html" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">your mother is the best woman</a>, objectively? What if <a class="bbc_url" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/the-longest-remaining-piece-of-current.html" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">you meet them for the first time long after you’ve grown up</a>? Not everyone, even the ones who get involved with family, are ugly, antisocial, or can’t get anyone else. <a class="bbc_url" href="http://thefinalmanifesto.tumblr.com/post/76595198739/what-was-it-like-when-you-two-both-got-married-like" rel="nofollow external" target="_blank" title="External link">Some have already been married before to other people.</a></b>
Besides, “better”? Are we cattle? Are we judging marriage purely by
economic status and social acceptance? That’s a great way to produce
loveless, alienating marriages. Wonderful for the children, I’m sure, to
have <a href="http://www.nation.co.ke/Features/DN2/My+wife+is+having+an+incestuous+relationship+with+her+brother+/-/957860/1527400/-/rc8ou9/-/index.html" target="_blank">one of your parents pining the whole time for someone else</a>.<b> </b></i><br />
<br />
<i><b>First of all, “a woman” doesn’t have to agree to anything. In the example for the poll, the union is polyandrous - multiple men, one woman.</b>
Why aren’t you asking how “a man” would agree to it, unless you have a
gendered conception of promiscuity and consent, where only men want sex
with various people, and women have to be cajoled? <b>And it is not
“cheating”, by definition. Cheating is having sex with someone else
without your partner(s)’s consent. Key to the idea and the term
“cheating” is going behind someone’s back. Having sex with a second
spouse, whom your other spouse knows and approves of, with the knowledge
of your other spouse, is not “cheating”.</b> </i><br />
<br />
<i>People also tend to be less threatened when the other person is
someone they know and are friends with. People have different levels of
natural jealousy, and jealousy can be mitigated with proper conversation
and conflict resolution. People get jealous when they feel their own
emotional and sexual needs aren’t being met/won’t be met. Jealousy, for
the exact same reasons, exists in monogamous relationships as well.
Jealousy is just more obvious in polyamorous relationships. As a result,
people who’ve been poly* for a long time are usually much better at
dealing with jealousy and talking honestly about their feelings with
their partners than many monogamous people.</i></blockquote>
Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-63644170545137221202015-12-17T12:37:00.004-05:002015-12-18T14:41:41.008-05:00We Get Letters From Happy LTR ConsanguinamoristsFull Marriage Equality <a href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2015/11/happy-ltr-consanguinamory.html">received a comment</a> from a long-term couple:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>My sister (now age 59) and I (61) actually ended up together after she had an unexpected divorce and moved in with me. We had "experimented" together at a young age and stopped in the late teens. When she moved in, I had just planned a vacation driving up the California coast and she came along. As we drove, we stopped at beaches along the highway and many were clothing optional and we "did as the Romans." It was at a nude beach just past Santa Cruz where we were watching a sunset when, on the spur of the moment, we kissed. That shock led to a very romantic interlude - that hasn't stopped even after 12 years. Something that amazes us both is that the passion between us has not faded as did in our marriages.</i></blockquote>
I wonder how often this happens to people? Rekindling something as adults they had in high school. Once again, I think people underestimate how much consanguinamory actually happens.Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-76492374113881391672015-12-11T09:00:00.000-05:002016-01-21T04:50:50.503-05:00Things are changing, and more stories are coming to light<a href="http://www.vice.com/read/i-love-my-sister-876">An interview with an Austrian couple (now in Germany) from VICE:</a><br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>I met Tom* through his psychotherapist, who is a friend of mine, but he
didn't want to meet me in person. He was worried I would judge or insult
him. That's
how others have reacted when he's told them about his life. He does want
to talk, though—he says he
wants to get the truth off his chest. So we arrange a Skype interview.
He turns up in dark sunglasses and a hat to protect his identity. He
promises he'll tell me
everything as long as I don't reveal his personal details. If I did, I
would be putting his freedom at stake.</i><br />
<br />
<div class="MsoNormal">
<i>Tom's profile picture shows him and his girlfriend,
Lena. She hugs him from behind, lovingly kissing him on the neck. He is
smiling, twining his fingers in her long, brown hair. Strictly speaking,
nothing is
wrong with this photo. It shows two people who love each other—a
relationship
based on mutual attraction.</i></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<i>But Lena is Tom's sister, and for most people
this
changes everything; the photograph actually becomes criminal evidence.
"I'm scared of people
finding me disgusting," says Tom. He looks away from me and claws at his
fingers. He's been in a committed relationship with his sister for 20
years, and the couple has a child together. "There's nothing that I
haven't heard before. People have called me a desecrator, sister-fucker,
or simply retarded. And all that's come out of the
mouths of people who were at one time my friends. Even if society won't
recognize us, we exist and there are more of us than you think."</i></blockquote>
<a name='more'></a><blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span lang="DE-AT">Rotraut Perner</span> is a
psychotherapist who has worked, among other things, on various incest
cases since 1975. "In most cases, my patients were very shy toward
strangers," he says. "They clearly exhibited social anxiety and tended
to stay at
home. This of course was often linked to their backstory: Most of them
weren't
allowed to meet up with other people as children because their parents
were either very
jealous or very stern—limiting their children's movements."</i> </blockquote>
Biased sample much, coming from a therapist? <br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>Tom and Lena grew up in a small Austrian village. They lived in a huge,
white fairytale house with a dog on the front lawn. Their mother was a
housewife and their father a civil servant. The
kids were well-behaved, went to school, and did their best not to
attract negative
attention. In their family there were
no quarrels, and smiles were obligatory. Otherwise, what would the
neighbors think?
At some point Tom realized that he wasn't perfect. Lena felt the same
way. "I started getting
real feelings for her when we both entered puberty," said Tom. "She was
blossoming. Sometimes I would watch her getting dressed in her room and
always felt ashamed of myself afterwards."
</i><br />
<i><br /></i>
<i>[...] After a three-year relationship, Lena's boyfriend
cheated on her. In the middle of the night she stumbled into Tom's bedroom. He
was already asleep and was woken by her sobbing. To console her, he fetched
some wine from the cellar. After the first glass, came the second, and then the third in
quick succession. Intoxicated in the moment, Lena cuddled up to his shoulder.</i></blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i><span lang="DE-AT">In Rotraut Perner's </span>view,
this is not abnormal per se. "From my professional experience, it's not
true
that people don't find their siblings attractive," the psychotherapist
says.
"Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. More importantly,
relationships
between siblings are defined by envy, rivalry, and admiration, along
with the need
to cuddle or have secrets from the rest of the world. All those things
are
linked to certain fantasies—some of them induced by pop culture and the
media, others by their upbringing and family situation. Whether or not
you make those fantasies a reality, depends on how good you are at
evaluating that reality.
People in incestuous relationships often lack that skill."</i></blockquote>
What does that even mean? As an evolutionarily and biologically minded person, that's just unscientific hypothetical nonsense. <br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>"I can still remember it like it happened yesterday," says Tom. "She looked up at me and asked why other men can't be
more like me." That's when it happened; Tom felt sure that he and Lena were
not just siblings. But before he could make a move,
Lena leaned in and kissed him. Tom pushed his sister away. "What the hell are we doing?" he
screamed. Lena started to cry.
</i> <br />
<i><br /></i>
<i>[...] He now knows that he used to watch Lena getting
dressed because he was keen on her. He wasn't just aroused because she's
a
woman, but also because he had feelings
for her. Lena and Tom have since spoken about that a lot. Lena's told
Tom that she would leave her door open on purpose so that he could
observe her. She was trying to seduce him—yet that only became clear to
her after their kiss.
"I was relieved to find out she felt the same about me," said Tom. "We
could be
happy together. But of course that was a kind of utopia. In reality, our
love
was a curse—it still is."
</i></blockquote>
<blockquote>
<i>[...] When Tom slept with Lena for the first time, it wasn't just an
act of
love but also a criminal offense. "It was then I realized we're
criminals. But Paragraph 211 [of the Austrian criminal code] punishes
consenting adults
for entering relationships with other adults. We're not forcing each
other into anything." For Tom, this paragraph is a huge, black cloud hovering above him. He can't understand why he should be sent to
prison. "Since when is disgust a reason to imprison others?" he said. "Nobody would make
someone serve time for having sex with a cake, just because someone else found
it disgusting."</i></blockquote>
Luckily, <a href="http://thefinalmanifesto.blogspot.com/2015/01/global-map-of-incest-laws.html">it's not illegal everywhere</a>. No German-speaking country, though. The Germanic nations and their former colonies seem to have the strongest taboos and the strictest laws.<br />
<blockquote>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<i>And though his cause is a long way from the mainstream, he's not alone.
Hans Jörg Albrecht, director of the
Max Planck Institute for Foreign and International Criminal Law in
Germany, has tried to disprove the most common rumors surrounding incest
in a lengthy analysis. Albrect's writings are Tom's Bible. "The
majority of people think
that Paragraph 211... serves children who are yet to
be born," says Tom. "They are just so wrong. They assume that 100
percent of children
who arise from incestuous relationships are handicapped. In general, the children of related couples are more likely to have certain kinds of genetic conditions, but <a href="http://www.geneticalliance.org.uk/docs/translations/english/16-marrying-rel-t.pdf" target="_blank">according</a>
to the Genetic Alliance, a UK-based group that works to improve the
lives of people with genetic conditions, "most related couples have
healthy children."</i></div>
</blockquote>
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>"I
would understand it if you told me, 'You are going to prison because you are endangering
your child,'" Tom said. "But my child is healthy and my wife and I love each other
voluntarily. Therefore all good reasons for punishment do not apply."</i><br />
<br />
<div class="MsoNormal">
<i>Tom and
Lena kept their relationship a secret for several years. "For a long time, we thought that we were sick.
What kind of person is in love with his sister?" Tom said. "It's unbelievable what a taboo can do to
your feelings of self-worth." [...] At one point, Tom became depressed, separating
from Lena and trying to kill himself. Lena found him
unconscious in the bath with sleeping tablets beside him. That was a
moment of self-realization for him: "Something had to change. I felt
like I lived in a bubble."</i></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<br /></div>
<div class="MsoNormal">
<i>So, Lena and Tom
decided to move out of their parents' home and far away from anyone who
knew them. Today they share an apartment in Germany. Their new friends
think they're married. When Lena gave birth to their daughter, Tom said,
she declared the father to be unknown. "We didn't want to risk anything. There's no way I'll let them put me
in prison and take me away from my family."</i>
</div>
</blockquote>
I'm so glad that more and more people are coming forward. There have been a series of media interviews in the past year or two. If this continues, things might actually start changing. So much of the context of the current debate revolves around everyone thinking people like this don't exist.<br />
<br />
As for the therapist's observations, I agree that non-GSA couples tend to be
more introverted, though I don't think this is actually socially
constructed. I suspect it's more likely some kind of neuropsychological
relationship between what makes people introverted and the Westermarck
effect. It's been found that at least in some species of bird, the more
introverted birds are more monogamous and more likely to be the ones in
relationships with a sibling, while the extroverted, exploratory birds
are less likely, but also don't maintain long term relationships as
much. I think it just reflects aspects of a personality spectrum
relating to sex and relationships. I know some couples who are
extroverted and even polyamorous. There’s also likely a difference between people who are in committed
relationship with their family, and people who just have an ongoing
affair with them, which seems to be far more common. It just depends, really.<br />
<br />
I also disagree with his other observations, except that it's not unusual for some people to be attracted to their sibling. I've generally found existing psychological analysis of both GSA and non-GSA relationships to be underdeveloped at best, and ridiculous and insulting at worst. We need more information, and more <i>scientists</i> who are willing to look at these relationships more empathetically.Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-40611600262704432482015-12-10T22:02:00.001-05:002015-12-20T00:44:51.220-05:00The "extended" Folgers "incest" commercial<br />
This is really funny. Sort of dark, given that this kind of situation actually happens, but still really funny.<br />
<br />
<iframe allowfullscreen="" frameborder="0" height="270" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/fhfcWTZeP1k" width="480"></iframe>Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com0tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-17796773352219886152015-10-02T09:00:00.000-04:002017-04-15T17:43:50.974-04:00Why do we assume humans were always so obsessed with punishment?When I came across this, my jaw dropped:<br />
<blockquote class="tr_bq">
<i>The Hadza certainly are egalitarian [...]. This does not mean that there are no individuals who would like to dominate others and have their way. It is simply difficult to boss others around. If a Hadza tries to tell others what to do, which does happen now and then, the others simply ignore it; if he or she persists, they just move to another camp. [...] Teenagers look up to adults and get along well with their elders. This is at least partly due to the fact that adults do not try to control them and rarely express strong opinions about whom they should marry. [...] The Hadza have very few taboos compared to most ethnic groups in Tanzania. [...] There are more norms than taboos.</i><br />
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<i>[...] In 1911, Obst observed: "What I could find out about the [Hadza's] family life suggests that they treat each other more cordially than the surrounding Bantu families do. No father would sell his daughter to somebody if the girl does not love the man or had not made arrangements with him." [...]. This is still true today. Female choice appears to be the main factor influencing Hadza marriage. [...] Median age at first marriage is 21 years for men and 17 years for women [...].</i><br />
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<i>[...] Occasionally, a Hadza woman marries a non-Hadza, moves away, and has a child with him. Very often, however, the woman eventually leaves her husband and returns to raise the child in a Hadza camp. This seems to be because Hadza women are too independent to put up with the sort of treatment they get from non-Hadza men. Hadza women have a good deal of independence and often speak their minds. But with non-Hadza men, they are looked down on, given orders, and more often beaten, so they want to leave and return to a Hadza camp. When Hadza women return to a Hadza camp, they do not experience any notable stigma, nor does a child with a non-Hadza father [...]. [...] Occasionally, non-Hadza men take up life in a Hadza camp with their Hadza wives, and these marriages are more enduring because the men treat their wives better; in fact, they begin to behave just like Hadza men.</i><br />
<i><br /></i>
<b><i>Obst [...] said that a man could marry anyone other than his mother or sister and that one man even married his granddaughter. The Hadza, like people in most societies, say that it is not acceptable to marry anyone who is a parent, [offspring], sibling, grandparent, grandchild, uncle, aunt, nephew, or niece [...]. They usually say it is not good to marry first cousins [...]. However, as with the few other rules one can elicit from the Hadza, there is little to no enforcement. I know one man who married his niece. One man even married his sister. While other Hadza shake their heads and say it is not right, no one feels compelled to do anything about it. So even though these norms are well understood and recognized by all Hadza, there is simply no strong sentiment that others should enforce them. To a remarkable extent, individuals are free to do what they want.</i></b><br />
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<i>[...] [W]ife beating appears to be fairly rare. [...] Rape of a Hadza woman by a Hadza man is extremely rare since the woman's family would not sit idly by [...].</i> </blockquote>
- Frank Marlowe, <i>The Hadza Hunter-Gatherers of Tanzania</i><br />
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You have understand, this is a very widely read book. I keep reading in academic works about how consanguinamory doesn't happen, except in a few rare cases of GSA, and that no society except Egypt approved. I have so many questions about these couples, but Marlowe never deigned to write about them except for this single paragraph. Things like this make you wonder whether consanguinamory has been observed frequently, but simply goes unmentioned and unstudied.<br />
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I don't know if I believe the grandfather-granddaughter case, especially since Obst was only a German colonial official, and not the best ethnographer, but Marlowe is a much more reliable source, and his observations are recent. The Hadza aren't unusual among egalitarian cultures in how they do not enforce their "incest" norms. I wouldn't be surprised if a general disinterest in controlling other people's behavior, including when it comes to consanguinamory, goes all the way back to our earliest ancestors. Non-human animals don't enforce taboos against consanguinamory, and property-less hunter-gatherers across the board don't care much for controlling other people's behavior.<br />
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One of the things they illustrate is that one can have a society with almost total wealth equality, high equality between men and women, almost non-existent rape and murder, and an allowance for consenting adult relatives to form sexual relationships. The last is not mutually exclusive with the others. I have not been able to find any reports of pedophilia or familial rape among the Hadza either.<br />
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If this is what a society tolerant of consanguinamory looks like, what exactly are people afraid of?Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com2tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5601525188416837867.post-33867948258597394822015-10-01T09:00:00.000-04:002017-03-22T01:14:05.411-04:00A Woman Denied Her Right to Marry the Person She Loves<a href="http://marriage-equality.blogspot.com/2015/08/a-woman-denied-her-right-to-marry.html">From Full Marriage Equality</a>:<br />
<blockquote>
<i>I am a
legal secretary. I work at a small criminal defense firm in the midwest
United States. I was raised in the southeast United States with one
adopted sister and one adopted brother, with whom I grew up. My adopted
parents were upper-middle class. We were raised Christian Baptist. My
half-brother, Joshua, was raised in foster care in the midwest. We
didn't know about each other growing up. [...] My sexual orientation is
pansexual, and he is bisexual. We are monogamous. [...] I am 36, and he
is 31.</i></blockquote>
<blockquote>
<i>[...] Since I
was adopted, I didn't know anything about any biological siblings. And
Joshua didn't know about me either. Our father left me when I was six
months old and my mother abandoned me. So I was adopted. And our father
abandoned Joshua when he was two years old. His mother was unfit and he
spent almost his entire childhood in foster care. Joshua was on
Facebook looking for siblings and he found our half-brother, William,
whom I had found several years prior. When they realized they had the
same father, William put us in touch with each other.</i></blockquote>
<blockquote>
<i>[...] When
we were put in touch, the first day was spent talking on a private chat
app. We were both cautious at first, being perfect strangers. The second
day we swapped pics. I felt something was special about him. And he
told me later that he was completely smitten with me. It took us about
two weeks of feeling each other out before we finally admitted what we
felt, though. [...] I
never in my wildest dreams would have thought this possible. I did,
however, do some research and our situation is classic GSA. Once we both
worked up the nerve to admit our feelings to each other, we felt much
relief. It was even better knowing that we both reciprocated the
feelings.</i></blockquote>
<blockquote>
<i>[...] We
have been together a little over two years. We live together. We see
each other as both siblings, and married spouses. The roles kind of
bleed over into each other so it's an inseparable combination. [...] I have
one friend in a different country that knows about us. He is
supportive. The country he lives in does not prosecute consenting
adults.</i></blockquote>
<blockquote>
<i>[...] In the city we live in, we present to others as
just siblings. We fear the laws here. So we do not display romantic
affection in public. But when we travel, we travel as a couple and not
as siblings. It's those times that we can enjoy appearing as any normal
couple would. [...] It's
difficult in that we can't show to much affection in public. The little
things most people take for granted, like reaching for his hand, a
tender embrace, or a gentle kiss. All must wait until we are safely home
behind closed doors. It's hard to show restraint all day every day. [...] If we could get married we definitely would.</i></blockquote>
Anonymoushttp://www.blogger.com/profile/09471853483266796310noreply@blogger.com0